1

(1 replies, posted in Technique)

Oh we all know Bede.  If you search his name here, you'll see he actually used to post on this site and also find many discussions where others reference him.  I myself and many others consider him a very credible source.  Thanks for posting the links to his latest youtube discussion.

Radan wrote:

Hello KTA community. Is there anyone who has real experience with the korean bow with "korean tiller" (only left hand use bow OR right hand use bow, for example SMG ones) versus ordinary korean bows for wordwild export LH+RH bows?
For explanation: The bow with "korean tiller" has a little bit sideways off-axis tips for better paradox (it only work with correct korean grip)
My question is: Is it noticeable difference shooting? Better stabilization arrow? Less archery paradox - less contact arrow and bow?? Can you compare these?


This is unfortunately a very difficult question to answer since there is uncertainty as to whether or not the Korean tiller really exists at all.  Pay especially close attention to the first thread referenced below:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=851

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/view … 5860#p5860


I don't think this matter has ever been definitively resolved so perhaps someone could finally address this here now.

3

(1 replies, posted in Arrows)

Most people just go for carbon because its usually cheaper to buy a half dozen or full dozen at the store rather than try and track down an actual wood arrow maker whose arrows by the half or full dozen will usually cost more.  Carbon arrows are also speedier than wood.  However a wood arrow, if made of say cedar or spruce, can be reusable when it breaks but that's dependent upon how and where the break is.  That from my years of archery experience is the only real advantage wood has over carbon.  When a carbon breaks, it almost always fractures in a way that is unusable again. 

When considering bamboo arrows, they usually fracture in a way where they are unusable again, however the Japanese will apparently repair a broken bamboo arrow for you almost no matter how it fractures.  So long as its of course actually one of their bamboo arrows, just to be clear.  I have never gone through this process myself.  As far as I know, Korean bamboo arrow makers do not offer this service for their arrows.  I have glued back some of my Korean bamboo arrows that I thought had salvageable fractures.  It went OK but I don't really shoot the re-glued ones and would not recommend doing it yourself or even shooting them.

Final point: wooden arrows usually lead you into crafting.  Particularly if you want to make them yourself rather than have a wooden arrow maker do them for you.  This is fine, but it will take away time from you shooting and perfecting your technique and form.  Which is really what you should be focusing on as a beginner.

Overall, carbon is best for all, particularly if you are a noob.  They generally have more longevity as well compared to their wood counterparts.

4

(9 replies, posted in Bows)

bluelake wrote:
geoarcher wrote:
bluelake wrote:

I used it to open my video on horn bows over a quarter-century ago.

Is it possible to purchase your horn bow video from you somehow?

I stopped making DVD copies of it a couple of years ago when my DVD copier malfunctioned. Also, since the beginning of the pandemic, Korea has made shipping things out of Korea expensive and a bit more complicated...

Still, I'll think about it.

Getting it up on Amazon through their publishing capabilities would probably be your best bet.  I purchased the  "How-to" Construct The Asiatic Composite Bow that way.  I think you just submit whatever digital file format you have the video in, and can even design a cover through their self publishing services.  They do all the rest.

5

(9 replies, posted in Bows)

bluelake wrote:

I used it to open my video on horn bows over a quarter-century ago.

Is it possible to purchase your horn bow video from you somehow?

6

(9 replies, posted in Bows)

raven wrote:

When you say esoteric are you referring to Taoism? Dr Duvernay could possibly shed some light on that subject?

No.  I was referring to KTA.  Esoteric means 'knowledge limited to a few'.  I wouldn't consider the knowledge of KTA super widespread outside of Korea for a number of reasons.  Therefore, all the little details about differing bow types and what not throughout KTA's history are probably not going to make it outside of the country for the international community to know about.  That's what I was getting at.

7

(9 replies, posted in Bows)

Oh wait I see the pic now.  Yeah its entirely possible that it could be accurate for whatever period is being depicted on the statute of the mounted archer.  I don't think a singular bow type existed per se to any culture 100%.  For instance, it seems the Mongols had varying degrees of their bows.  On the other hand it could be a mistake but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this is a bow type not frequently talked about internationally that relates to Koreanic people.  Not everything seems to get published for international consumption among some of these countries especially given the somewhat esoteric reach and nature of the subject at hand.

8

(9 replies, posted in Bows)

Today's commonly sold Korean bow is essentially the "civilian" type developed in about the 1500s if not a bit later from what I've heard.  Oldest depictions ancestral to the horn composite type of the Korean penninsula and therefore Koreanic people I also guess  can be seen with the mounted archers on the Goguryeo tombs.

Can't see the image from the link for some reason.

9

(1 replies, posted in Bows)

If you draw a bow shorter than the length its rated at then, yes, the draw weight you are holding at full draw will be less than the rated amount.  Naturally, the draw weight increases if you pull past the rated length.

The only sure way to know what your bow's draw weight is at any given length is to use a draw-scale.  You can use a formula to try and figure it out but your numbers probably won't be nearly as accurate compared to using an actual draw-scale.

As for your logic, it's correct.  If you are trying to get a little more weight out of your draw length by picking up say a 50# bow rated at say 31", then drawing it at about 30' will probably put you in the ball park of 45# but its really difficult to say precisely without being able to take it to a draw scale.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

10

(1 replies, posted in Bows)

Usually, you buy the manufacturer's string.  See the following link:

https://koreanbow.com/shop/index.php?id … ;id_lang=1

You may want to double check with the folks at the site I linked if that particular Kaya string is good for the Kahn.  Regardless, this should put you on the right track one way or the other.

****Update****

This is the replacement HMG sent me after the 90 pounder broke:

Bow: HMG 'Monarq'
Bow rating: 45#@31"
Actual draw: 50.29#@34"
Arrow type: Alibow carbon @36"
Arrow weights: 343.06 grains
GPP: 6.82
FPS: 231

Energy/ft-lbs: 40.63   
Efficiency: 0.80

Pretty darn good results.  Korean synthetics prove time and time again that higher price tag and amazing scores like these have no real correlation.  Often times for the higher end stuff, you pay more for looks and feel.  Not necessarily a bad thing per se and lets consider here the Saluki Turk.  Sure its not casting arrows out as fast or as efficiently as this HMG but it does feel better in the hands.  I prefer the grip with how its shaped on the Turk plus the high quality leather work Lukas provided on that section of the bow.  Its also smoother at full draw and overall a fairly comfortable bow to handle.  Likewise, the amount of let off you get with the Paragon Khan is amazing, so smooth, does not feel like at all like its 50 or 54 pounds.  I'll have to double check things one day if I ever get a decent draw scale. 

I've also noticed that bows over the years that have more of a rigidness to them seem to score higher here in the matter of efficiency.  Bows that are too soft feeling score less.  That's not to say if you go as rigid as you can you will get your best scores.  That was precisely the problem with the Golhan Turk.  Very stiff, very rigid resin material that probably would have produced a near straight draw force curve.  Not smooth at all with poor output efficiency.  The Elong 'Crab bows' were of course the opposite here.  Extremely smooth flexi-resin yet no real power at all with the cast.  This is why laminate synthetic bows are so coveted.  A bowyer can choose a series of top notch material like maple, osage, bamboo, and Bear Paw glass, stack it all together, and produce something amazing by getting the best of both worlds on the pendulum scale of rigid-smooth. 

There's always a sacrifice for whatever you do though.  Tip too rigid on the pendulum scale of bow making and you sacrifice smooth draw, tip too far for smooth draw and you sacrifice efficiency.  The Saluki Damascus seems to hit the balance between these two areas almost perfectly as I reflect back now upon years of data.  That's why that particular bow has been as successful as it has.  The Korean bows in general are not that smooth but I suspect the slight bias towards more rigidness is done to ensure a speedier bow that can easily cast an arrow down a 145 meter range.  Just my guess here.

These particular HMGs are no exception and I can't say my YMGs or SMGs were super smooth either.  However, their inherent power was always realized one way or the other.

****Update****

Bow: AF 'Crab bow' or Indo-Persian.
Bow rating: 45#@28"

Actual draw: 54.41#@32.5"
Arrow type: 33.5" Goldtip carbons
Arrow weights: 425.93 grains
GPP: 7.8
FPS: 207

Energy/ft-lbs: 40.51
Efficiency:0.74

In some ways, its the one that exceeded expectations.  Especially in overall feel.  The arrows place and fly excruciatingly well out of this one and its just really fun to shoot.  If GPP is increased just a little, its possible that efficiency can be raised to about 80 percent while maintaining an FPS just over 200.  I think this one's optimal output is not yet quite achieved but could very easily be done with just a few tweaks.  Not bad for a so called intermediate level bow.  Just hope it has some longevity to it.

****Update****

Bow: Paragon 'Khan'
Bow rating: 35#@28"

Actual draw: 43.95#@33.5"
Arrow type: 33.5" Goldtip carbons
Arrow weights: 425.93 grains
GPP: 9.69
FPS: 195

Energy/ft-lbs: 35.95
Efficiency:0.81

So about this one: first off, Rob is an excellent bowyer and what he has achieved here with the Khan is phenomenal.  I am somewhat confused though about the draw weight stats provided with the bow.  This one is supposed to actually reach 48#@32 inches.  It doesn't remotely feel it to me.  Not sure if it has to do with the technology used to build the bow plus the design or not.  I'm also not sure if the draw weight numbers on the card are derived from an actual draw scale or not.  My confusion is partly from the fact that my Alibow Kaiyuan is rated 40#@36" and when I draw to that, the weight of the Kaiyuan at my full draw with that bow seems more comparable to what I'm feeling here with the Khan at full draw.  My Khan's draw weight does not seem to be anything like my Mariner Yuan which is 50#@32".  Of course my challenge is ultimately wrong if draw weights on the card were derived from an actual bow draw scale.  Provided the scale is calibrated correctly of course.  I don't know but even if it is, the bow just doesn't feel 50#@32".  However if I am right, then congratulations to Rob on these phenomenal results!    While mine doesn't quite reach over 200 FPS, 195 with a 9.55 GPP arrow delivering a 0.81 efficiency rating isn't too shabby in my book.

****Update****

Bow: Saluki Turk 'Hybrid'
Bow rating: 42.5#@28"

Actual draw: 51.82#@32"
Arrow type: 32" Alibow carbons
Arrow weights: 342.59 grains
GPP: 6.84
FPS: 207

Energy/ft-lbs: 32.58
Efficiency:0.62

Now with a different arrow:

Actual draw: 51.82#@32"
Arrow type: 32.5" Goldtip carbons
Arrow weights: 479.48 grains
GPP: 9.58
FPS: 189

Energy/ft-lbs: 38.02
Efficiency:0.73

Not exactly getting the best of all worlds here with any one of these arrows I have for this bow according to my criteria which is a speed over 200 FPS garnering an output efficiency in the 80th percentile achieved with an arrow of at least 8 GPP.  But these numbers aren't everything.  I am fairly happy with the way the shorter-lighter Aibow arrow flies which has a less stiffer spine compared to the Goldtip.  Goes to show, you really just have to experiment with different arrows and consider all factors.

****Update****

Some other stats:

Actual draw: 51.82#@32"
Arrow type: 34" Black Eagle Instinct Traditional Carbon Arrows (without tip and insert)
Arrow weights: 306.9496 grains
GPP: 5.92
FPS: 224

Actual draw: 51.82#@32"
Arrow type: 33" Goldtip Devastators
Arrow weights: 405.871 grains
GPP: 7.83
FPS: 201

15

(2 replies, posted in Bows)

kaneda wrote:

having trouble finding reviews of this bow. trying to figure out if it would be worth buying. daehun ktb specifically. anybody have any experience with this brand?

I did a query and this came up:

https://archeryfactoryoutlet.com/daehan-ktb/

There are reviews at the bottom of the page although they reference Kaya KTBs rather than Daehun.  Some reviews don't however reference the bow as Kaya.  There is a contact section on the website, you could perhaps ask them which reviews more accurately refer to the Daehun.  In the meantime, I'll put out some feelers elsewhere on your behalf.

And the 90 pounder broke the other day.  Snapped right at the lower limb.  I had gotten the bow to open up to 31 inches and pushed it slightly past it.  When I did, it said no more.  Mind you its a 53" Monarq which is supposed to have 34" max draw per manufacturer's specification.  Its funny because I was noticing what did indeed seem like early stacking in the bow even when just drawing it to 29".  I wasn't too sure if I was just not mustering up enough strength.  I'm pretty sure I have the answer now.

****Update****

So I didn't initially tell, but when I picked up the 50#HMG 'Monarq' I also picked up a 90#one.  I finally have stats:

Bow: HMG 'Monarq'
Bow rating: 90#@31"
Actual draw: 82.94#@29"
Arrow type: carbon
Arrow weights: 502 grains
GPP: 5.57
FPS: 237

Energy/ft-lbs: 62.59
Efficiency:0.75

Naturally, tough bow to shoot.  Especially if your form is not perfect.  I hope to get to 31 inches one day.  In the meantime, I'll add this one to the chart.

TristanTheCat wrote:

Can someone translate this? The pic is attached but i dont see it. let me know if u can. Thanks!


I don't think the attachments function works here anymore.  You'll have to upload to somewhere like imgur or flickr and then copy the BB code here to get it showing.  Or perhaps just share the link?

Also, you may be better off posting whatever you have over at the KTA facebook page.  The FB pages for Asiatic archery are way more active than here and seem to have a wider range of members with backgrounds better suited to help you.  I don't think there are too many people here who really know how to translate Korean script anymore.

Of course you can always post it here anyway.  You may get lucky and someone may come along to help you although there are things I've asked to have translated here quite a while ago that remain untranslated.  Regardless, you have options.

19

(7 replies, posted in Bows)

felix8 wrote:

My Black Shadow was 53" and the draw felt quite stacky past 31".

That does seem to happen too, that is longer jang-gung type bows not always having the elasticity needed to actually draw as long as they could.  My old shorter HMG at 51" can be drawn as long as my longer jang-gung grade YMG-Hwarang which is 52" long.  I can only get a max draw of about 32.5" out of the YMG-Hwarang.  ebay does have someone selling the Farmingtons so you could always ask but yeah I can easily vouch for HMGs having much elasticity to them and very obtainable long draws.  If its elasticity you're looking for, HMG is probably your best bet.

20

(7 replies, posted in Bows)

felix8 wrote:

Hey geoarcher, thanks for the reply.

I want to stay under 250usd. Leaning towards the Monarq right now but the gold wrap is just so ugly. Foam grip is a big plus tho and a bow's appearance is not the deciding factor for me.


Yeah that's what I was going to recommend, that is a Monarq.  As you probably know its HMG and my experience with their bows is positive.  I even reviewed the Monarq here and one other by them that I purchased years ago.  The wrapping on mine isn't gold rather its dark metallic gray and black but I purchased mine from ebay.  Grip is mostly fine I'd say, its not as thick as my other HMG but it feels good enough in the hand.  I actually wanted a Farmington years ago but now with HMG upping its products and making them more purchasable I'd easily recommend them over most others.  I doubt a Farmington would be much of a gamble and probably would easily satisfy.  I went with another HMG this time simply because it offered one of the longer draws you can get these days for a Korean bow.  Farmington seems to offer similar options but doesn't explicitly state max draw length for its bow.  So I just went with a known entity that specified all relevant info up front.  But I doubt you'd have a bad experience with the Farmington though.  Its probably worth a shot.

21

(7 replies, posted in Bows)

felix8 wrote:

Hello folks,

My Black Shadow was stolen recently and I'm shopping for a replacement. Does anyone here have any experience with the Farmington Archery Assassin?

https://farmingtonarchery.com/index.php … uct_id=225

I haven't been able to find much info about Farmington Archery or this bow. It's supposedly a 53" carbon laminate. There's an unboxing vid @yt but it doesn't go much further than that. Any info would be appreciated, thanks.

-felix

I don't.  There used to be yt videos made by a Korean archery group shooting them and that's all I really know or can say about them.  Are you trying to stay under 200 USD?

****Update****

Something new, one of the 53" long HMGs that you can get over at ebay or amazon marketed as 'Monarq':

Bow: HMG 'Monarq'
Bow rating: 50#@31"
Actual draw: 56@34"
Arrow type: Alibow carbon @36"
Arrow weights: 360 grains
GPP: 6.42
FPS: 229

Energy/ft-lbs: 41.91   
Efficiency:  0.75

I consider this bow more of a proper 'jang-gung'.  The 34" max draw is very real and obtainable compared to the YMG-Hwarang which seems to fall a bit short of that.  My shorter HMG also seems to have a good bit of elasticity for a KTB in its class.  I think these results are very promising.  HMG bows are proving consistently based on my chronograph runs + efficiency analysis to be a real diamonds in the ruff among laminate KTA manufacturers.  With the right type of arrow and good technique, you can obtain phenomenal results.  Definitely worth it to check one out if you can.

Also, I've compiled most of the relevant information of this thread in a spread sheet finally after all these years.  Sorting by efficiency a trend can be observed.  Korean and Crim. Tatar laminate bows seem to dominate performance results within the 6-10 GPP range - the typical arrow to bow draw weight recommendations per manufacturer.  While not all of these bows were tested as thoroughly save for the Mariner Han and Mongol, which yielded comparable efficiency results at varying arrow weights within the aforementioned GPP range (and hence not worth compiling subsequent scores), its doubtful based on the arrow weights initially tested at, that they would significantly approach the same level of performance as the Korean and Crim. Tatar laminates.  Except for maybe the Kaiyuan by Alibow although it probably would still be easily out-competed at that GPP range by the Crims and KTBs:

https://i.imgur.com/pd898h6.png

Just wanted to pass on some interesting things about this technique that I was able to gather elsewhere:

Korean torque technique: involves 'pre-loading' the grasping hand counter-clockwise (clockwise if holding the bow in the right hand) in order to make the wrist torque to the left or right depending on bow hand dexterity. This ensures a clean pass of the arrow over the bow without it touching the riser area at all. Improves accuracy and overall flight of the arrow. Used in the context of Korean traditional archery and probably elsewhere although I have yet to come across it referenced outside of KTA. It was alluded to elsewhere that torque technique can be found in old Middle Eastern archery texts although I am not completely sure which ones. In Korean, there are a few terms to refer to it as:

흩혀쥐기 or 'heu-tyuh-jwi-gi': has many meanings such as to 'scatter' or 'misalignment of grip'
쥐어 짜기 or 'jwi-uh-jja-gi': meaning 'squeezing' or 'twisting'
고자채기 or 'go-jah-chae-gi': meaning 'kicking the siyah'
활대 엎기 or 'hwal-dae-up-gi': meaning to 'laying down the bow'

24

(1 replies, posted in Announcements)

bluelake wrote:

Please welcome Geoarcher as a new moderator. I am often not here, so it's good to have sharp-eyed hands here to take care of things...

Thanks bluelake!  Now I can finally purge all those pesky spammers and their spam threads. cool

25

(1 replies, posted in Announcements)

bluelake wrote:

Sorry about the downtime. It seems like an inconsistency between program versions on the main domain and the subdomain caused it. Thank you Geoarcher for letting me know...

Thank you bluelake for bringing it back up! smile