26

(0 replies, posted in Technique)

Nice guide on shooting:

http://www.archerynews.net/m/view.asp?i … D85RVmjr2Y

27

(9 replies, posted in Bows)

ShinLa wrote:

Interesting read, thanks for posting that.

You're welcome.

28

(9 replies, posted in Bows)

Found this interesting discussion that Bede did over at  the old ATARN forum regarding Joseon era hornbows:

https://atarn.net/phpBB2/forum2/topic25 … 79a2d05afb

Not sure if the design principles discussed influenced gak-gung over 20 plus years ago but its worth a read nonetheless.

Some insights here:  A relationship between longer draws and increased efficiency can be witnessed.  The longer Korean carbon arrows, albeit heavier, yield higher efficiency for both the HMG and Hwarang/YMG.  Higher velocity is maintained with the shorter-lighter Goldtip.  The story is not quite the same for the gak-gung as the bamboo arrows of same length yet varying weights yield results contrary.

While it may be in haste to conclude the synthetics as superior in regards to efficiency, I should note that 31 inches is in fact just about all you're going to get out of my two gak-gungs.  Perhaps if I could find a gak-gung with a longer max draw the story would be different.  Knowing how both gak-gung operate, I can somewhat confidently conclude that 31" is it for them. A heavier arrow may in fact make a difference for the gak-gung made by Mater Kim Seok-Jae.  I may purchase some new Korean bamboo arrows in the future at longer length and heavier weight just to make sure. 

Aside from the comparisons, one has to appreciate the output for the YMG-Hwarang.  In all likelihood, an arrow at 10 gpp with at least a 32" draw would push the YMG-Hwarang to about 0.90 efficiency at ~ 200 fps.  This would make the YMG-Hwarang comparable to the Saluki Damascus/Tatar style bow which currently dominates all performance levels tested and accounted for in this thread.

Bow: HMG
Bow rating: 45@31"
Actual draw: 46.8lbs@32" for Goldtip and 47.6lbs@32.5" for Korean carbon
Arrow type: Goldtip@32" and Korean carbon@33.5"
Arrow weights: 400.93 (Goldtip) and 447.22 (Korean carbon) grains
GPP: 8.55 (Goldtip) and 9.39 (Korean carbon)
FPS: 203 and 199

Energy/ft-lbs: 36.67 (Goldtip) and 39.31 (Korean carbon)
Efficiency:  0.78 (Goldtip) and 0.82 (Korean carbon)

***Update***

Let's do a side by side comparison to the gak-gung vs. the synthetic laminates:

Bow: YMG/Hwarang (jang-gung)
Bow rating: 55bs@31"
Actual draw: 57.2lbs@32" for shorter arrow and 58lbs@32.5" for longer arrow
Arrow type: Goldtip@32" and Korean carbon@33.5"
Arrow weights: 400.93 (Goldtip) and 447.22 (Korean carbon) grains
GPP: 7 (Goldtip) and 7.71 (Korean carbon)
FPS: 231 (Goldtip) and 223 (Korean carbon)

Energy/ft-lbs: 47.49 (Goldtip) and 49.37 (Korean carbon)
Efficiency: 0.82 (Goldtip) and 0.86 (Korean carbon)

***Update***

Bow: Gak-gung by Mater Kim Seok-Jae.
Bow rating: 60lbs@28"
Actual draw: 68lbs@31"
Arrow type: traditional Korean bamboo arrows @ 31.25"
Arrow weights: 443.98 and 518.37 grains
GPP: 6.5 and 7.6
FPS: 218 and 197

Energy: 46.84 (lighter) and 44.66 (heavier)
Efficiency: 0.68 (lighter) and 0.65 (heavier)

The 5 count of Korean traditional bamboo arrows I own came somewhat mismatched.  So I decided to use the thinnest and one of the fatter arrows in the set.  Amazingly enough, similar efficiency results to my other gak-gung made by Master Kim Gwan-deok.  That's in spite of a 20+ draw weight difference, different ogums, and lengths of the bows.  Two significantly different bows, very similar results.  Although I may redo with my first gak-gung in the future to see if I can tease out something different as I managed to correct the bow more so it draws better.  Also for consideration, the derived speeds within range of each other:

With heavier arrow: 196, 197
With lighter arrow: 214, 216, 218

33

(15 replies, posted in Bows)

On a side note, Koreans do apparently practice a type of flight shooting.  Except its known as 'far shooting' in the language: 멀리 쏘기.  Usually done on long sandy beaches.

Footage: http://blog.daum.net/woo-139/257

34

(9 replies, posted in Bows)

geoarcher wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/mVsdY7Z.jpg

Now that I have one at 60lbs@28', I see that most of these may just be in that draw range and rather that's why their limbs are so wide.  Hard to say exactly though.  Comparatively speaking, my first guk-gung rates 45@28" and the limbs are very narrow on that one.

35

(0 replies, posted in Bows)

This is the one they sell over at FreddieArchery/Koreanbows.com:

https://i.imgur.com/GwvzssZ.jpg

The rating is 60lbs@28".  Shot a little over 20 arrows with it today and it did not flip out of its string despite how I am not completely satisfied with the way the limbs line up.  Shows how stable this one is.  Also the profile on this one when drawn looks amazing.  That's because the 'ogum' or knee section was designed to work differently on this when compared to the other I have.  It has the 'far ogum' and the difference is noticeable.

Not stats for it yet but will get to that eventually.

36

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

Yes, but also have a big commercial grade mechanical scale, but is the same. Also used a proper mechanical bow scale at our club and measured 60lbs at full draw....

54lbs at 31"...


Hmmm...there was a guy on here who used to do force draw curve analysis.  He was good at generating charts and showed how
usually you get about a pound or two per inch drawn.  Give or take.  Most bows cluster around this too per one of his charts.  Especially if rated 40lbs at 28 inches it seems.  His one Kaya was well in line with this, although the Hwarang-YMG and one other he had were outliers as they both had poundage-ratings in line with warbows.  The Hwarang-YMG had a rather steep draw curve which would suggest not such a smooth draw.  He noted as well as many others that Kaya was often eschewed here on this forum for various reasons.  Although I myself like their KTB.  After all, some people prefer a bow with a more gradual curve which his Kaya more or less had.  Steep curves are not a bench mark for how great the bow is.  And my experience with Kayas is that they are rather smooth, especially at that poundage rating. 

So naturally these results for your bow are a bit surprising considering that I don't get results like that with my YMG which is not at warbow poundage-ratings when I take it to the luggage scale.  Its rated more in line with your Kaya matter of fact.  Although you sharing what the draw force curve for your bow would be quite revealing.  But you have me curious now.  I may have to start getting better set up for draw curve analysis and test what I have that way. 

Probably though a very distant future endeavor for myself.

37

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

Just measured once again, 42lbs at 28, 64 at 32,4"  50"Kaya Black Cat 40lbs. Measured from nock to back of bow.

Schau dir mal die Kommentare in dem schweizer Video an...

So I take it you are using an actual luggage scale to get these results?

38

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

In the same videos comment section you will find a comment from somebody who bought a 50" 60 lbs Kaya and measured 65lbs at 28 and 94lbs at 32,5"


I see....

Gotta luv those 20+ pound increasing bows after 4 inches of draw.

39

(102 replies, posted in Bows)


Well if the bows are rated around 60lbs at whatever draw length combined with with a light enough arrow then sure.

But I'd redo math for your bow rated at 40lbs.

40

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

Martin Spörries....


Never heard of him.  Did YT search and nada.

Have to say again, this thread, completely hijacked.  Oh well.

41

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

It might help to post the question and answer regarding the text that you ran through google translate:

활터 선배님들께 좌궁우궁 출전피만 붙이면 크게 상관없다고 하시는데 개량궁에서 큰 차이가 있나요?신고


좌궁과 우궁은 힘점이 달라서 따로 써야 하는게 맞습니다. 그래서 저희 회사에서는 좌궁, 우궁을 따로 제작을 합니다. 감사합니다.신고

I did run them both through google translate and few other translators.  While it seems this would be about 'Korean tiller' by just glancing over the translation, I think a more precise translation of the question and answer would help.  I'd ask bluelake for some help here but already bugged him about some other things requiring translation and don't want to bother people too much with this stuff.  I'll just leave it here and someone qualified maybe can chime in one day with a much more precise translation so we can better understand what is being discussed.

Some really good information to add here form the following source:

http://gunbai-militaryhistory.blogspot. … -some.html

Mongol sources on the other hand  states that in the first invasion 15 000 men composed by Mongol, Jurchens and Han Chinese plus 8000 Korean soldiers, for a total of 23 000 men sailed for Japan.
However, given the nature of the operation and the presence of Han Chinese and Koreans, it would be wrong to think that the famous and skilled Mongolian horse archers made up the majority of the troops deployed in the war.
Nevertheless, the Mongol clearly states that they were outnumbered by their foes, so it is quite likely that only few thousand man reached Japan in 1274.
According to Japanese first hand account of the invasion, the mongol army that invaded Japan was made primarily by foot soldiers recruited in China and Korea, with Mongol horsemen acting as generals. Ironically, it is very likely that the Japanese army had much more horsemen than their mongolian counterpart.

Both Japanese and Mongol invasions seems to be exagerating the number of the Yuan forces, putting the entire armada at more than 100 000 men. While those numbers seems questionable, archeological findings of the second fleet clearly show that big war boats were deployed by the Yuan, which measure over 230 meters and thus could support such army. Still, the burden of such logistic feat would have been extreme even for the Yuan empire, so while it is very likely that the second invasion had more troops than the first one, it is hard to believe that they number more than 100 000 men.

On the other hand, other estimations for troop strenght exist as well in the literature.
For the first invasion, if we take into account additional korean sailors that might have partecipated in the fights as well, we could count an invading force of 27 000 - 30 000 men,while much more reliable account for the second invasion put the number of the two combined fleet at 70 000 men. Details of these troops, army and navy would be discussed in future article.

The main point of this section is to highlight that this wasn't the typical Mongolian army of the period. It wasn't made entirely by mounted warriors, which accounted for a very limited part of the troops, and the composition of different people inside the army, Han Chinese, Koreans, Jurchens and Mongol themselves made the comunication within the army extremely difficult.
In fact, it would be extremely flawed to call the entire operation a "Mongol Invasion" as the force was made by various people under the control of the Yuan empire.

43

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

Kaya 40lbs, (60lbs at 32)

That's a huge leap btw.  The formula I use looks like this:

(rated draw weight)/(rated length - brace height)*(draw length - brace height)

Based on that I get 47.11111111111117 lbs@32".  That's of course assuming your Kaya is 40lb@28" and your brace height is either 5.5 or 6 inches.  For this result, I assumed it was 5.5 inches.  Even with 6 inches it would be within range of that.  But definitely not 60lbs.

44

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

My White Feather seems to be straight, while my Kayas top limb is a bit to the right.... Kaya shoots a lot more consistent, needs less torque. Thought that might be due to the lower poundage, but could as well be that the Kaya is actually is a RH bow...

Sure, but regarding your Kaya, did you check for that before you started shooting it?

45

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

Try Chrome with automatic translation KR to GBR


I'll try tomorrow.  I just sent them an email.  Should be interesting to see if they write anything back.

46

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

Date 2019.09.23 the second one..

For some reason, none of my browsers will let me copy this.  Weird.  Oh well, in the meantime I'm going to write to them.

47

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

No, I only found that page. If you look closer you will find that they offer 3 tyoes of bows in Korea. If you write them it would be great to get more infos...

Oh I just saw this.  I might try and write to them in Korean.  Not that I'm fluent but I am persistent.  Usually in these circumstances, they won't sell to you direct and if they do they want a bank wire transfer.  I absolutely refuse to do this because my bank is so bad at this.  I could write to them just for the heck of it though.

48

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

In the shop somebody was asking if there is a difference between RH and LH bows, this is their answer translated by google in my language... :

Der linke und der rechte Bogen haben unterschiedliche Stärkepunkte, daher ist es richtig, sie separat zu verwenden. Unser Unternehmen stellt also den linken und den rechten Bogen getrennt her. Vielen Dank.


Where in the shop is this exactly?  It might translate in English better.

49

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

Well this what translates on their homepage into English:


Hello, We sincerely thank our customers for visiting Sky Sports (Hyunmu Palace) (Hyunmu Arrow).
Haneul Sports (Hyunmugung) (Hyunmu Arrow) was established based on 20 years of experience and know-how in archery and archery production. We specialize in producing and selling carbon bows.
Sky Sports will always devote itself to the development of archery to provide the best bows suitable for each archer's taste and body shape with excellent elasticity and flexibility, and excellent performance.
Thank you.

Don't see anything explicity talking about 'Korean tiller' or how the upper limb tilts in on direction or the other.  I'm not noticing the RH/LH thing in the shop section either but as I discussed with Shinla, it most likely pertains to arrow pass orientation.

Anyway, at this point I'd love to order directly off their site.  I really like how they finish the bow with wrapping and covering.  Looks nicer than what Koreanbows does with with the HMG/Nomad (really annoying covering).

Have you ordered from them direct or had success communicating with them?

50

(102 replies, posted in Bows)

JGH wrote:

Seems the discussion is going on, I hope it's ok for bluelake if I post that here. But others are also well known. I try to find later the post, where they explain RH/LH bows. Use google translate....

Producer of HMG, Nomad, Daylite, White Feather etc:

http://skybowsports.com/



JGH wrote:

https://smartstore.naver.com/skyarchery … NT_CONTENT

Here in their shop is the answer to RH/LH


Thanks but where exactly on these pages does it explain that HMG bows have a 'Korean tiller' set in on them?