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Korean Traditional Archery → Posts by geoarcher
I'm hoping that my step through method of stringing the bow is the cause of the RH tiller....
I'd wager to say that is what is causing your rightward leaning limb tilt. Either that or just constant right hand draw use in general. You could perhaps experiment with a myriad of ways to correct using pressure but what you've proposed sounds like a good start.
I'm going to switch how I string the bow from holding the upper limb with my right hand and the lower limb over my left leg to holding the upper limb with my left hand and the lower limb over my right leg. By next Spring if the "Korean Tiller" moves the other way I'll know it's caused by I string the bow. If the tiller doesn't change, it's caused by how I shoot or it came that way from YMG. (Shooting left handed is not a good option for me.)
At this point, I think in order to somewhat more effectively prove the Korean tiller concept for the laminates, you would have to carefully string and inspect the bow upon initially receiving it. Pull it back facing a mirror. See what it tells you. Because, yes, reverse pressure will take the tilt out anyway. bluelake also makes note of that on the thread I keep referencing.
I will also throw this out here: there is a possibility that a laminate bow coming with a tilt to the left or right may be passed off by a manufacturer as acceptable. But in reality, no such tilt for a laminate should be there. Hate to think that way but it needs to be thrown out here given some of the circumstances I noted above.
I will also say that based on my knowledge of materials such as that of traditional horn, wood, and sinew gak-gung vs the rigidness of laminate gungs, I somewhat doubt that any laminate is meant to tolerate a set in tilt by the manufacture due to the very rigid, very consistent nature of fiber glass.
But I'm just thinking critically at this point.
I ordered in the Spring this year and didn't think to check for Korean tiller at first. By the time I noticed, it could have been caused by how I shoot or how I string the bow. If you look closely at the picture in the KoreaBow catalog you can see the arrow pass on the right side of the YMG.
Yeah, and from my buying experience over at Koreanbows, I ordered the HMG in Spring 2014 but back then they did in fact have a RH and LH option for it. I assumed back then that it referred to the arrow pass designation and so I chose RH and received my HMG with a RH arrow pass. I should note that I have noticed my HMG having an upper limb tilt to the right. But I have only just noticed this. So my account and experience with Koreanbows.com cannot prove the Korean tiller concept for laminates either. I will however reiterate that when you ask Koreanbows.com about the concept, they have no awareness of it. I'm more inclined to believe that manufacturers would have made Koreanbows.com aware about Korean tiller if its an actual order option for laminates. Also, the YMGs are listed over at koreanbows.com as either RH or LH:
http://www.koreanbow.com/shop/index.php … ;id_lang=1
Would further seem to rule against a 'Korean tiller' concept for laminates sold over at Koreanbows.com.
I just checked again bluelake's thread where he negates the concept. He was told by SMG that 'Korean tiller' applies to laminates. However, YMG (?) said that is erroneous. Interestingly enough, SMG's site is not up anymore and they have no more of their bows up over at Koreanbows. I asked bluelake what happened to them and he said he did not know.
Just to clarify, There wasn't a LH or RH option when ordering the YMG. It just came with a small, thin chuljeonpi on the right side of the bow. As to "Korean Tiller", when braced the string is centered on the lower limb and slightly to the right on the upper. I assumed that to be within manufacturing tolerance but it could also be "Korean Tiller" if such a thing exists.
Correction; I just checked and there is a LH or RH description for the YMG sold by KoreaBow.
Right, and I was going to ask you how long ago did you order. How did they know to equip your bow with a right side arrow pass? Did it come like that by default?
Also, did you check for a Korean tiller before you started shooting it? According to that one thread by bluelake, often times a right or left tilt will set in on the laminates based on how the bow is shot by the user.
geoarcher wrote:ShinLa wrote:My YMG has an arrow pass (chuljeonpi) only on the right side. I assume that means it is a RH bow.
Did you get it over Koreanbows? I wasn't too sure if they were equiping bows anymore with chuljeonpi or if that option referred to something else.
Yes, the bow is from Koreabows but the arrow pass isn't the same one they sell separately.
Ok. Yeah I notice they sell a 2 pack of chuljeonpi in the accessories section. And then also an 'arrow rest' product. I wasn't too sure though if the RH/LH option was actually referring to the Korean Tiller concept. I suspect this option on other web sites likewise does not refer to 'Korean Tiller'.
My YMG has an arrow pass (chuljeonpi) only on the right side. I assume that means it is a RH bow.
Did you get it over Koreanbows? I wasn't too sure if they were equiping bows anymore with chuljeonpi or if that option referred to something else.
... don't want to post that link here though, and it's only korean language translated by google.....
So what? This is a Korean archery forum. Besides I'd like to see the HMG site. Never saw it before. Post the link.
Freddy does sell arrow rests, maybe thats why they offer RH/LH don't think that they offer different tiller versions...
Arrow rests wouldn't explain that since the YMG and many others have the RH/LH option beside them to check off. You have to buy that item separate anyway I'm sure:
Might be true for Hwarang/YMG but I have seen both Kaya and HMG offered in RH and LH on a korean website. On the HMG page they explain that they offer bows with sideways tiller.... but their export models like Daylite, Nomad and White Feather seem to be ambidextrous.....
Per bluelake's/Thomas' post, he claims it applies to none of the laminates and that YMG claimed no such thing applies to any laminates regardless of maker.
Yes, I've seen that too over Freddie Archery regarding dexterity. They also include that option for the YMG's as well. When I asked the people over at Freddie Archery about 'Korean Tiller' though while explaining the concept to them, they appeared to have no idea what I was talking about.
What HMG page are you talking about that claims they offer bows with sideways tiller?
Having been on a horn bow/gak-gung kick recently, I have been watching a lot of videos and googling images on the subject. While I'm not sure about all the ages of the bows I'm seeing exactly, I have been noticing many wider limb gak-gung, definitely wider than the one I have at least. Here's an interesting pic:
I'd wager to seay the three to the right may fall into the +20 year ago category, that is working back from 2015. According to one article I read and posted excerpts from on a different thread, there are fewer than 20 people in the country who make gak-gung in Korea.
Would love to know myself who is considered the best.
I would really love to know how an original korean right hand tillered bow shoots vs all the ambidextrious export models that we can buy here in EU...
So focusing in on the part of your original post which I framed here, I have to say I don't think what you are bringing up really applies to the laminate versions of the traditional Korean bows. Unless you know of another more authoritative source, Thomas/bluelake came back on here in 2018 and stated that there is no such thing as a 'Korean-tiller' for the laminated bows. See here for more details:
http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=851
To be clear, that would mean none of the laminate versions have a tilt to the right or left to accommodate the dexterity of the archer for the purpose of ensuring a 'center-shot' without the use of torque. However, the original horn composites or 'gak-gung' apparently can have a 'Korean tiller' set in them according to one actual Korean horn bow master-maker I briefly conversed with not too long ago. Although not of all them do or are supposed to either. I believe I also heard somewhere that this tiller type can be removed from the gak-gung after a straightening process based on the archer's preferred shooting style.
That being said, there has been a lot of confusion on the subject. The story may change here again, but these are the facts as I understand them at the moment derived from what would appear to be the most relevant authoritative sources.
hard to tell, the pictures are not taken at the exact same angle, but there appears to be some differences in the angle coming from the handle as well as how thick it starts from the handle. the siyahs seem to be more agressive on the bow on the right, but could just be the angle of the pictures
Well, no actually. And for two reasons:
1) The bow on the left is mine. And it definitely doesn't have the same type of ogum as the one to the right which I saw first hand where it is stored.
2) I contacted the Korean bow master who made mine, Master Kim-Gwan deok, and he said his product, again the one to the left, has a short ogum.
Really, if you look with a keen eye, you should be able to see the difference.
Here are the 3 ogum subdivisions:
-mon ogum
-han ogum
-pat'un ogum
Not all gak-gung have the same shape to them exactly. Example:
The areas circled are termed 'ogum' (오금) and consist of three subdivisions (see bluelake's/Thomas Duvernay's book for more detail on the subdivisions). The left bow has what was described to me by my bowyer as a 'short ogum' while the bow to the right has a 'far ogum'. 'Short' gives you easier draw at the beginning while for 'far' it's at the end. I am not exactly sure how these variations in 'ogum' are crafted into the bow. I know from inquiring that the bracers/dojigae and string length (alone?) apparently have nothing to do with determining the distance of the 'ogum' area.
Regardless, you may have noticed these subtle differences and wondered how and why.
Just got a luggage scale. Stats are as follows for the gak-gung:
Bow: Gak-gung by Master Kim Gwan-deok
Bow rating: 45lbs@28" or 51.1lbs@31"
Actual draw: 49lbs@30"
Arrow type: traditional Korean bamboo arrows @ 31.25"
Arrow weights: 418.9885
GPP: 8.55
FPS: 186
Energy: 32.181
Efficiency: 0.65
A whole short documentary featuring the bowyer making a gak-gung from start to finish:
I wanted to add this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0DHQkczUjw
Very important because most gakgung do not come stretched out like this to the point where they can be braced initially.
Also, have to add here that this alone does not get it to the point where it can be strung. Rather, its just to help stretch it out a bit so its not such a shock to the bow once the bracing process begins. I found that after using a stretching stick, it was OK to begin the bracing process although it should probably be heated a bit some what before doing so. I did not heat the limbs since I was very unsure about how to tell how much to heat them up at.
What really 'tames' it is leaving the bracers/dojigae on it for an extended period of time. Especially if new. Then you can attempt to string it some how for the first time, either with a peg board or, if you are really flexible, the way the Koreans do by sitting on the floor.
One other good article I'll source here. Shows the bowyer in action pretty well:
More from a different article I found:
[Chungcheong Ilbo Reporter Shin Hong-gyun] If Japan is a country of swords, Korea is a country of bows.
Some info about the bowyer and the state of bow-making in Korea:
According to Kim, there are fewer than 20 people in the country who make gongs.
“I went to Yecheon, Gyeongsangbuk-do while walking around because I was in feng shui area, and I saw a bow making in a workshop. I first learned to make a bow from a craftsman Kwon Yeong-gu there. I didn't teach them, so I spent over 100 million won in 5 years and learned the technique."
Better translation of info discussed in previous post:
......Bows that were used until the Joseon Dynasty were 7 types in total, including for exhibition, hunting, soft music (all music played at court ceremonies or feasts), and dynamism (exercise of archery).
Interesting categorization of the gak-gung type commonly used in Korea today:
The bow that has been handed down to this day is said to be a horn bow for wet and exercise.
'Wet' in this context is obviously a bad translation. Perhaps too literal. Wonder what is really meant here?
Source: https://www.ccdailynews.com/news/articl … xno=936724
I recently discovered who made my gak-gung and was given the bowyer's name in Korean characters (Kim Gwang-deok (김광덕)). I ran a query using the characters and found an interesting article written up on him in Korean. The article mentions some interesting facts about the gak-gung. I used google translate here so its not perfect but would like to share. Where there are question marks is where I note uncertainty in the translation:
Hanmok Palace is made of a single wooden or bamboo pyeon and is mainly a longbow (?). Complex bows are made of a variety of materials such as wood pyeon, bamboo pyeon, gakpyeon, and tendon, and are mainly short bows.
In terms of combat function, bows are divided into Yeongung (軟弓) and Ganggung (剛弓). Yeongung was mainly used by horsemen because it was convenient for shooting quickly from close range, and Ganggung was mainly used by infantry because it was capable of shooting from a distance. The bow in Korea is a composite short bow, a 'gak'-bow made of horns (角弓). The gakgung is named accordingly because it was made from the horns of a water buffalo called heukgak (黑角).
There were 7 types of bows that were used until the Joseon Dynasty including for display, for hunting, for Yeonak (?), and for wet use (?). Ye-gung, Mok-gung, Iron-gung, Cheoltae-gung, Donggae-bow, and Gak-gung. It is called a corner bow of use (?).
Craftsman Kim first learned how to make Korean archery (Gakgung) from Master Kim Bong-won in Jinhae. After the teacher's death, I wondered if there would be any shortcomings, so I went to Yecheon to learn. Craftsman Kim Gwang-deok, who makes about 150 bows a year, works (?) constantly, and when the process is complete, pulls the bow to measure the elasticity and pressure.
A note in the article on what the heat box is used for:
Since the bow is affected by temperature and humidity, it is stored in a separate box that controls the temperature and humidity by lighting a light bulb to maintain and restore its condition.
Some info on the restoration work he's done on historical bows
In addition to making 150 short bows per year, craftsmen with strong tenacity also restored bows such as Ganggung, Donggaebow, Mokbow, Yangjeonggung, Iron Palace, Concubine, Bangoong, Yeongung, and Yegung based on literature.
The article briefly mentions some mind and body aspects too in gungdo:
Archery was also important to the royal family as archery, and it was a martial art [射藝] that the yangban's self-control must be mastered in order to train mind and body and cultivate hoyeonji (浩然之氣).
I'll be looking more into hoyeonji. Sounds intriguing.
Source: https://www.inews365.com/news/article.html?no=340492
Never bought one and never would cause I usually have a guy I know do my serving for me. He only charges me 3 bucks. However if you don't have such luxury and you don't trust manufacturers, you apparently can make one yourself for a mere 1 to 2 dollars:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ZwjSDd4j8
If I would ever want one I would go this route.
A word about polyresin bows: they can break very easily if not made well. Those Elong/Nikita mughal-mongol-crab-whatever bows at 30lbs did all the time. I had 2 break on me. Terrible company, terrible customer service.
There are no guarantees with any of these material types. If not made well from the beginning, you will likely have problems with any bow.
Final advice: find a manufacturer you like/can trust and stick with them. Also, what you pay for is what you get. Usually.
but does any maker offer a full polyresin korean bow?
I know of none.
also if taken care of, can a hornbow last a lifetime? just some things i've been pondering as of late.
Generally speaking, anything well made can last a lifetime and or beyond if taken care of. Some historic Turkish bows found in museums have been strung up and reused for competitions in the past. There is British footage dating back to the early 1900s or so of an Englishman doing just this for such an event (see below). The Turkish bow had been housed in a British museum dormant for a long time and was well over 100 years old dating back to the 17th century. Yet, it was still fully functional after all those years:
hey, im from florida. kinda newish to archery. bought an ebay manchu bow that was way too heavy for me 70lbs @28". then i got a survival longbow the primal gear unlimited 50lbs @28". practiced for a bit in my garage, but i put one too many holes in the drywall so i stopped. that was about 10+ years ago. fast forward to about april, had been watching a bunch of armin's videos and i wanted to get the segye from alibow. i order it but it took them forever to even send it. turns out they didnt have some parts and were waiting for them to come blah blah. im not a patient man when it comes to ordering stuff online usually...so i ordered 3 more bows. kaya ktb 50#, alibow turkish fiberglass(off amazon) 25#, and the okcubaba premium in 45#.
if i could go back and make my purchases different i probably would knowing what i know now. but im still enjoying my journey into archery. joined the forum as my interest is mainly in traditional korean archery and its hard to find info on it, seemingly
Welcome, and yes there are alot of frustrating factors these days in the greater realm of Asiatic archery as it seems you have encountered. We discuss that here as well. Youtube reviewers and certain companies they push are definitely a thing to be wary of.
This forum is pretty good for learning about Korean archery despite how quiet it is. Less drama and misinformation compared to some of the other places although there is a lot more we could discuss and cover here as well. I myself am still piecing things together here and there even after all these years.
Anyway, welcome again and good luck on your journey. Have any legitimate questions, feel free to ask.
***Update***
Here are the low to high results within range of the gak-gung in fps:
175
181
186
I have no idea what the draw weight is for this bow since the merchant did not know. I have yet to purchase a luggage scale to determine this myself. The arrow used was a traditionally made bamboo Korean with a total length of 31.5". Haven't weighed it yet. I think I drew to about 30 inches. That's all I can say for now until I can get more info regarding the bow's draw weight.
Finally...
Hopefully these images can be seen. Will post chrono results elsewere.
Korean Traditional Archery → Posts by geoarcher
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