Draw Length and Anchor (Page 2 of 3)

Raven

Short recurves evolved for use on horseback while moving.  They were used at maximum possible range to harass formed bodies of troops and at relatively close range - about 50m - to maximize penetration of armored individuals by punching through armor which long heavy arrows (from either the Mongolian recurve or the English longbow) could achieve.  In either case the long draw is key to achieving the needed arrow mass and penetration.  As far as speed of executing a shot in hunting or in war, first shot accuracy beats a half dozen rapid misses anytime....

Kanuck

Raven,
The nock of the arrow is at a point that would be level with the back of my ear, the back of the fletching below my earlobe. This is a draw of 32.5" measured to the back of the bow/rear of the point, my arrows are 33.5".
Looking at EM's comparison photos above, you will notice a difference in the drawing hand which I suspect is being emphasised by a higher elbow position. I understand the problem EM is finding as I find the same. In my opinion, my bow is drawn to the optimal length intended but my draw is a few inches longer, if we consider a classical Korean stance. If you try a bit of 'air'archery' and draw your hand back, you will find a natural end to your draw. At this point the knuckle of your thumb will be level with the point of your deltoid and there is maximum back tension. If you try to draw further, your drawing elbow begins to rotate around your body, which affects the drawing hand.
If my bow was a few inches longer, this draw length would be achievable. I think it's simply a case of adjusting form to suit the bow.
There are many depictions from the various Asiatic bow cultures and most (save Scythian) display the archer with a long draw and similarly, most arrows found have been long. Interesting  that early (Scythian) and late (Turkish) cultures feature shorter draw lengths.

EM,
I think your form is very good and if you look at the limbs of your bow, it's as much as you will achieve. A Janggung may help but not much. Take a look at a number of different Korean archers, there is plenty of variation in style.

Thank you Hun.......it seems that are draw lengths are pretty similar.  Yours may be a bit longer than mine due to the 32.5 inch carbon arrows that I am using.  Also good pointer in regards to the air archery.

Also, as you have suggested, many different Korean archers with different stance and draw length.

I cannot coment on the Kaya bow but at 52" it probably will be ok.

Bows are weighed at the optimum draw length as determined by the bowyer. With mediterranean draw this is generally 28" as the average draw length of an adult male. Up to this point is therefore not considered important enough, I guess. Many bowyers will however state a maximum draw limit.
Not sure but I suspect these KTB models are weighed at 28" to go along with the accepted standard.

p.s. Beautiful form in that last picture. I would guess he is drawing around 32". Shorter arms anyone?

So, based on Bluelakes comment above, how do the bowyers determine weight?

Unless Im missing something very obvious, how does a bowyer determine weight if he does not have a reference for how far the bow might, or should, be drawn?

Its a crazy puzzler!

It's already fantastic that they can do that for hand made horn bows.

Hence, the problem is that if the bowyer wants to inform his potential clients about the features of his bows (to ease the choice, etc.), he would be obliged (after the fabrication of every bow) to measure the weight at every draw length for every particular bow, and attach to the bow a piece of paper recording the results of the measurements.

Seen from afar... by an ignorant...  it could be like this :

5 measurements would largely suffice  for each bow [3" by 3", beginning at 28", with the last measurement beeing made at the maximum safe draw length of the bow]. The measurements would be made after the completion of the bow. I guess this could be part of a light "quality control process".This doesn't seem a lot of work, particularly if we compare to the long maturation of a hand made horn bow.

For modern synthetic replicas of Korean traditional bows, I guess the problem may be much simpler : more standardization ; no individual measurements (or maybe only one : for the max safe draw length) ; only give standard weights for 5 draw lengths (including the maximum safe draw length) and the margin of error.

Putting it bluntly, they make Korean bows, take them or leave them. With KTB there are standards as there are with other traditional bows and these standards suit the needs of that particular culture.
Synthetic or otherwise, I am sure the bowyer could accomodate many of our requests and I am certain such personal treatment would demand premium prices 
As Bluelake has pointed out, there is a limited market percentage for longer bows, the cost of producing them would not be worth the effort.
Same as other manufacturers, they have a range of models and you choose from that range.

EM,
These are the only bows I've come across that offer two measurements, the 28" is to satisfy western archers. It would seem that with a 31" measurement, this is what the bowyers consider the optimum draw length. Safety is factored in when tillering a bow, therefore another inch should be fine. Asking that bow for another 4" is going to end in misery.

Yes, that's a good question.

Actually the name cited by Kaya is "Windfighter" (I've mispelled it by separating the 2 words). Freddie's message was saying
   "  [...] Windfighter is made by KAYA and it is 52" length bow. [...]

Freddie refered me to JVD.nl, telling me that they sell Kaya's Windfighter. But JVD.nl didn't gave me any info and refered me to local shops that would buy from them. And on JVD's web site, we see a "Wind Horse Bow Riding Fighter Korean Traditional" [!!] (not associated with the name "kaya").

On Kaya's website, I couldn't find a word about "windfighter" or "wind fighter".
On other websites, we can find a "Wind Fighter" which is not directly associated with the name "kaya".

It looks as if the Windfighter is a larger version of the KTB.  Kaya should make the 50" and 52" KTB available to North America.

Also, I wonder why a 65# version is not available for the 50" and 52" models?

Here 's what I took from a KTA book.
How DL can be determined.

Unit conversion for arrows

Nice to meet you guys here.

Welcome Sissara,
thank you for this drawing !

do you know if it corresponds to the long draw style or to the very long draw style [very low draw elbow, bent draw wrist] ?

According to those measurements, my arrows should be 2cm longer (with a suitable bow) ;
I suspect they should be even longer if I wanted to achieve the very long draw stance/style.

Answer from Kaya : their jang janggung (WindFighter) can be drawn safely to 37 inches,
(... interpretation of various short answers... couldn't get info about the max safe draw lenght)

Many thanks for warm welcome,
I think the book is for general modern sport/entertain style Gungdo. So the figure may describe normal style.
And for entry level student like me, other styles rather than basic posture are prohibited.

If the low draw arm/bending wrist drawing style was ever used for special/martial reasons such as style for extra short people, draw with armor/helmet, hose back shooting at 1-2'o clock or japanized, it was not recommended (for me) by my master.