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Re: apply the correct twist to the bow handle

Pressure at the bottom of the handle? In, my experience with SMG bows, they like pressure on the top of the handle, and the forward rotation. My first bow has frustrated me for one year until I discovered that it likes that. It is a lot more accurate when I do the forward rotation and likes to remind me if I don't do it  wink . The other bows are not that sensitive, but with forward rotation they shoot better. You'll have to find the balance point of you bow.

I do the forward rotation only be wrist tension, by keeping the wrist as level (or straight) as possible. This increases the draw length a bit and puts more force on the top limb. It also prevents the arrow nock from hitting your thumb, so you can get away with a lower nock position.

Regarding relaxing the bow hand, I would not recommend it. First, the grip is not designed for that. Look at compound and recurve bow grips - they are designed for a relaxed grip, but in order to be relaxed, it has to be straight. Then, if you decide to relax the bow hand, then you would have to match the arrow spine more carefully. 

Remember the teachings from Saracen Archery: "strong in both fists". I would say the bow hand is even more important than the draw hand. Never allow your bow to overpower your bow hand, because then you will be inaccurate. You are shooting the bow, not just drawing it.

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27 Reply by Pedro C (edited by Pedro C 2016-01-17 03:31:23)

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Re: apply the correct twist to the bow handle

Thanks for your reply.

Just read page 61 of this book, Gao Ying actually advocates for little and ring finger pressure. But against "gripping the handle too tightly", with the rest of the fingers. So I will not relax the entire draw hand, but I am not so sure about the wrist. Gao Ying would maybe advocate for mostly having the wrist relaxed, since "draw hand releases and bow hand does not react"? I think I'd prefer a bow that is balanced with a nock point high enough to not get the arrow nock on my bow hand so the bow doesn't need to be rotated forward.

I think, with my Nomad bow, the arrow can fly straight with a reasonable nock point and no rotation forward, so that's good. Guess whether pushing forward screws up or helps arrow flight depends on the tiller of the bow and the nock point.

Don't most Korean archers collapse their hand? I would like to be able to draw back a bit more (with the same draw length) to engage the back muscles more, too.

I used to try to start holding the bow forward and out, applying pressure with the little and ring fingers, then drew while letting the bow hand collapse but still maintaining some forward push with the wrist, not so much as to maintain the wrist straight but enough to rotate the bow forward  and out (to help the arrow clear the bow, supposedly) during release.

Also I meant pressure on the bottom of the handle on the back side of the bow, not the belly. So it would result in forward rotation

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  • Registered: 2011-10-16
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Re: apply the correct twist to the bow handle

On the back side, with the little finger, some pressure is needed, but just a bit. The rotation comes mostly from the wrist pushing forward, more than from the little finger pushing back. Again, it is all about balance. The bow's center of mass is usually in the middle of the handle. If you push with the wrist forward, you are pushing with the base of the thumb and the index finger, on the top of the handle, above the center of mass. Some pressure is needed in the little finger to allow the rotation, but pressure in the middle and little finger is mostly for side torque.

Both hands have to be relaxed at the same time, at the point of the release, and this is the real difficult part - relaxing, not actively releasing, especially the draw hand. In the bow hand you can get away with more variation, but it will affect the shot. If you decide to relax the bow hand, the bottom bow limb tip should strike your armpit or elbow. This is also mention in old books, I think in Arab archery, but I am not sure at the moment.

Korean masters know their technique very well, but they have adapted for shooting at long distance, which again, they do very well. But close range precision is not their strong point. They use longer draws to put more power into the arrow, but this makes aiming instinctively more difficult, because the draw hand is not in line with the arrow. If you are using some kind of point of aim or gap technique, with a fixed anchor, then this would become irrelevant. When shooting instinctively, especially without an anchor point, it is harder to be consistent when the drawing hand elbow exceeds the arrow line....at least for me it is.

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29 Reply by FieroFurry (edited by FieroFurry 2016-01-17 14:50:44)

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Re: apply the correct twist to the bow handle

Pedro C wrote:

spam^

Giant bump because I don't want to start a new thread.. ..

Probably need little twist, even with a heavier bow, to rotate the bow enough to clear the arrow.

I sort of am trying to follow Gao Ying's teachings now, though I start with bow arm high and don't lean sideways when drawing. Does one really need to push the bow forward(out?) with the bow hand/wrist/fingers pressure at all? Because of how a bow is tillered? This just seems to be to compensate for an unbalanced bow, and can add inconsistency. If the arrow flies straight (ie not pointing up or down, as in bare shaft tuning), it is fine and there is no need to try to balance the bow/bend the top limb more by pushing forward. Although I'm sure archers can be  accurate even if they push forward..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTZkrmM5hx4 Seems here that pushing the bow out/down (forward khatra?) totally screws the arrow flight with turkish bow, but rotation can help

Gao Ying advocated against "painting the ground"... which is when the bow falls forward and rotates out.

Master Heon Kim does not seem to push the bow out/down much if at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpysp0OkGU0

I think only a minimal rotation on release would be fine, plus movement of the bow arm backwards due to back tension. Would it be fine to relax the bow hand, letting it collapse without applying any force with wrist or fingers? "Pushing the high mountain" could be keeping the shoulder down, sort of pushing with the arm to keep it from collapsing and the elbow from bending too much? (but avoiding locking of the elbow) And let back tension take care of moving the bow out of the arrow's way? My guess is that it would be easier to be accurate with a relaxed bow hand, but maybe a little bit of rotation twist from the start of the draw could move the bow out of the way better. Not so sure about applying pressure w/ little finger.. sure that's not for really asymmetric bows? I never saw the bow fall forward in kyudo, it just seems to rotate nearly 360 degrees, probably easier to happen due to its size

guess pressure at the bottom of the handle doesn't necessarily push the bow forward, but twists and helps it rotate?

If your arrow is hitting try a arrow with less spine or just add a higher grain head-the correct arrow will not touch your hand/bow and should hit your mark; or maybe I just have magical bows..rofl

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Re: apply the correct twist to the bow handle

FieroFurry wrote:

If your arrow is hitting try a arrow with less spine or just add a higher grain head-the correct arrow will not touch your hand/bow and should hit your mark;

That works, but it is the western approach of tuning the arrow to the bow. I personally prefer tuning the bow hand torque to the arrow.

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31 Reply by Pedro C (edited by Pedro C 2016-01-17 23:56:24)

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Re: apply the correct twist to the bow handle

storm wrote:

That works, but it is the western approach of tuning the arrow to the bow. I personally prefer tuning the bow hand torque to the arrow.

In your experience, would you have to know exactly how much force to apply to the torque depending on the arrow, so you'd need to have matched arrows anyway? Or is torquing the same amount always fine, making the bow act center shot? Manchus and Gao Ying school apparently never did torque... but I'm fine with doing a little bit.
Tapered arrows (like bamboo or the Manchu barreled arrows), and arrows somewhat longer than draw length are allegedly more spine tolerant than the modern parallel shafts, so one wouldn't need an exact spine match, just a certain ballpark, so just weighing shafts should be enough for matching arrows to bows, even if shooting without torque.

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  • Registered: 2011-10-16
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Re: apply the correct twist to the bow handle

The idea is to make the arrow act like shot from a center shot bow, but torque might need to change slightly depending on arrow spine and weight. If you change the arrows, you can actively adjust the torque, but I've found that your brain does that automatically after a dozen shots. Try to shoot something like a 500 and a 300 spine arrow and check the differences with your bow and your technique.

If you mix arrows in a shooting session, or even shooting without looking which arrow you've picked up, stick with your default form. You will not be able to compensate for each arrow. The overall accuracy will drop, but you can experiment with different techniques (more or less torque, forward push, release types, anchors etc ) and find which technique is less affected by differences in spine.

If ultimate precision is your goal, then you might be better off with the western style of finding a fixed anchor,  relaxing the bow hand, tuning the arrows perfectly to the bow and choosing a reliable aiming technique like gap. Or practice day and night and shoot instinctively.

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