Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

Gabriel wrote in another thread:

i also have a Hwarang YMG 53# that has a small problem, the string move away from the bridges, and if you keep shooting like 3 in a ow without fixing it, it´ll snap out, that´s how i discovered. The bow shoots well, but has this minor inconvenience, i can´t pass this bow along as this has this problem, i´ll just keep it, cos i know how to handle it.

I have seen similar questions for some time now and decided to add this information here. Be very careful though, as it could damage the bow if not done properly and with great care!!!

This is how I correct limb twist (see pictures below). Only use softwoods and make sure you don't twist more than the bow wants to twist. Do not force the bow. Apply just a light twist at the beginning, see how and it goes, then restart from there.

I place the assembly near a heat source. The one I use never goes higher than about 50 degrees. I let the bow in this position for 2-3 days and check the results.

This bow was damaged by me. The bamboo core was split exactly along the center, in the top limb. All initial glue lines were intact so I was lucky (I was really impressed with the glue that the bowyer used). I re-glued it but then the limb showed a twist to the left which caused the string to jump off the bridge after 2 or three shots (it stayed on the bow though). Now, after this treatment it has a slight twist to the right - Korean tiller. I also added a bit of wood on the right side of the string guide, to help the string stay on the right side. Now the bow is 100% shootable and still my best bow so far: SMG, jang-gung, 60#. It is really a joy to pull compared to "normal" jung-gung bows.

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Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

Side view:

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28 (edited by tonygt19 2013-01-07 20:41:08)

Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

Storm,
At the risk of getting off topic I'd like to ask some questions about your comment on the pull of the longer jang-gung bow as opposed to the regular jung-gung bow. Do you think the efficiency of the arrow cast is also better in the longer jang-gung as compared to the jung-gung of similar weight?(possibly because of shorter limb travel?). If a bow of especially high drawweight, say 90 lbs at 28", were used do you think there would be any advantages in stringing, stability, and longer life of the bow in the longer jang-gung version? I realize this may call for some speculation on your part but I'd be interested in your take on this nontheless.
Cheers,
Tonygt19

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Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

Well, it’s a long story and I will go off topic even more… maybe the moderator could move this into a more appropriate topic. So, here is my take at it:

I must say first that I can only speak for SMG bows, carbon laminated, artificial horn version. I only shoot two YMG and two Kaya bows, and found them to be about the same, but I did not shoot them for a long time in order to get a better comparison between the makers. Also, the force-draw curve looks almost the same.

In 2009 I bought my jung-gung, 49# at the same time with a friend who got a 50# jang-gung. At the time I didn’t notice the change, but after shooting side by side it was clear that his trajectories were lower. When I measured the bows draw-weight curve, it became clear why. Then I tested both bows with a chronograph and found out that the jang-gung was about 10fps faster.
First, compare the measurements in this thread paying attention at the 49# jung-gung and 50# jang-gung: http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=232

The curve of the jang-gung is better up until 28 inches, and from that point on the bows have almost the same curve. Actually, the shorter bow stacks a tiny bit more. Also, I calculated the total energy and the jang-gung had between 5 and 10% more energy stored. Efficiency came somewhere between 65 and 80% for both bows, depending on the type of release: snap or holding for 2-3 seconds. The jang-gung had of course better efficiency by about 4% to 7%.

In terms of feel, I could say that the longer bow feels indeed stronger in the first 10 inches or so, but after that I could not really make a difference. Overall, I find the longer version nicer to draw, because you need to apply more force all the way, while still being smooth. It is actually smoother after you pass the first 7 or 8 inches.

As for reliability, I can only speak from experience on my 49# SMG jung-gung. In 3 years it shows no sign of defects. I shoot for about a year at 33”-34”, then dropped to 32.5”, used it in rain, shoot 6 gpp, I applied excessive torsion in the handle, I’ve hit once an object with the lower siyah…the bow is still shooting great. With the jang-gung I shoot regularly with 6-7gpp and this bow is a “wonder” to me, especially after the accident it had. I would really like to know what kind of glue they are using.

The tricky question is about higher vs lower weights. After doing all those measurements (see the thread mentioned above), I brought the curves of a stronger and lighter bow on the same scale and it became obvious that as the draw weight increases, the bow stacks less and preloads better, having a more level curve, which of course, is better.

For lower poundage (50# @ 29”), I would say not to worry about bow lifetime, except if the bow has some manufacturing or material issue. Most problems I have heard of are breaking of the carbon fiber on the back of the bow. The artificial horn versions are the most reliable though. Still, I have heard of higher poundage bows having a bit more frequent issues. I’ve not measured exactly but I have the impression that the carbon fiber on the back is the same thickness for all bows, and just the core differs in thickness. If this is true, maybe the stronger bows are reaching closer to the carbon fiber tensing limit, causing a break there. From this point of view, it would be better to have a longer bow with a shorter brace height if one wants to stress the limbs less.  So from a technical point of view, the longer bow should be more reliable at long draws. Personally I would like to see a bit more width in the limbs in the high pound bows, maybe just 3mm or so, as this would make them a bit more stable and reliable, but a bit slower too. Anyway, this is speculation as I have not measured the carbon fiber thickness in stronger bows. I would be curious to see one of the stronger bows that were recently ordered on this forum.

In stringing I have not found any differences. After all, there is just one inch difference between the two. As for stability, I think it depends a bit more on luck. They are pretty flexible though and can be corrected with a bit of heat. More width would help improve stability, but sacrifice speed.

I recently tried to acquire another jang-gung, but since it was not available at the time I received another jung-gung, “korean tiller” SMG. This 2012 version is different from the 2009 version. The top limb is more curved and a bit stronger and the difference between the top and bottom limb is higher. Although I have not measured it yet, I can feel the first inches stronger, but still not as good as in my jang gung (2011 version).

The good news is that the bowyers are constantly improving the bows so I guess it’s becoming easier to get high poundage bows these days.

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30 (edited by tonygt19 2013-01-12 19:39:06)

Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

Storm,
Thank you for the comprehensive and very informative reply. The force draw curve you linked to does indeed tell the story.  The empirical curve (thick line) for the 50 lb bow appears to be absent but since the mathematical and empirical curves for the other five bows appear to be identical per bow it’s safe to assume the mathematical curve for the 50 lb bow will suffice for comparison. It shows force by the string increased toward the beginning of the draw on the longer bow while at full draw (and beyond) the draw force is the same  compared to the shorter bow. Concentrating the force toward the front of the draw is exactly what a compound bow does with cams and cables. There’s a lot more to think about and be written here but as you wrote this should be a separate topic. I don’t want to hijack this space from the original poster.
Cheers,
Tonygt19

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Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

What´s a jang-gung and a jung-gung bow?

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Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

The "janggung" (장궁) is the longer version of the Korean bow.  By the name, "junggung" (중궁) seems to mean a middle-sized bow, but it's not a term I hear used here in Korea; a mid-size bow is the normal-length bow, "pyojunhyeong" (표준형).  The smaller bow is the "dangung" (단궁).

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Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

bluelake wrote:

The only time I had a limb issue with the Hwarang bow was when the bowyer accidentally sent me a Korean-market bow, instead of an international-market bow (Korean-market bows are tillered a little to the arrow side of the bow, while the int'l-market bows are center-strung).  I wonder if your bow might not be a similar case...  Still, it is true that you, once in a while, get a defective bow.  However, in the case of the bows I sell, I check them out as much as possible before shipping.

Bluelake,
I am going to be ordering a bow from SMG in the near future, will I need to specify that the bow be center strung and not right tillered? If so what is the Korean Term for "centre strung" or do I just need to specify that the bow should be an international market bow. I will have a Korean speaking family member ordering it for me, so the Korean terms would be helpful.
Thanks again.

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Re: KTB from bowKorea problem - UPDATE

Gukgung Disciple wrote:
bluelake wrote:

The only time I had a limb issue with the Hwarang bow was when the bowyer accidentally sent me a Korean-market bow, instead of an international-market bow (Korean-market bows are tillered a little to the arrow side of the bow, while the int'l-market bows are center-strung).  I wonder if your bow might not be a similar case...  Still, it is true that you, once in a while, get a defective bow.  However, in the case of the bows I sell, I check them out as much as possible before shipping.

Bluelake,
I am going to be ordering a bow from SMG in the near future, will I need to specify that the bow be center strung and not right tillered? If so what is the Korean Term for "centre strung" or do I just need to specify that the bow should be an international market bow. I will have a Korean speaking family member ordering it for me, so the Korean terms would be helpful.
Thanks again.

Just have the person say it's for the international market; Mr. Park knows all about it.

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