1 (edited by gpang788 2013-01-30 16:44:10)

Topic: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Was a western recurve / compound shooter, took up trad Korean archery a few years ago and since then have totally fallen in love with this style of archery and have no intention of going back to recurve or compound, except for one problem..

For years I have searched the web, visited almost every archery forum out there (including this one, no offence) yet it seems nobody could really come up with a satisfactory answer as to why arrows fly right when shooting with a thumbring.

The best or most frequently seen answer seem to somehow be a correlation between form improvement and as a result somehow having the problem of arrow flight correct itself. There have also been many other suggested possible answers, none of which work really well when I tried them out.

In short, there seemed to be no definite answer. For years, I have been shooting by aiming the Hwarang off center so as to compensate for arrow drift, as illustrated in the pics below:

http://imageshack.us/a/img849/4941/beforei.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img713/287/before2o.jpg


As you can see, this method unfortunately makes it rather hard to aim.


Utterly frustrated by the lack of answers to this problem, I set about looking for a solution on my own. I believe at this point I have finally “solved” this age old problem that seems to have perplexed so many, myself included, when using the Hwarang with a thumbring, once and for all. At this point, I must add that I am by no means an expert with the Hwarang, just a normal archer looking for answers.

I also believe this fix to be applicable to other kinds of thumbring bows as well.

As it turned out, the answer was there all along. I took what I already knew about Western archery and applied it to thumbring shooting with the Hwarang

In other words - arrow spine tuning and draw length tuning (to establish the straightest aerodynamic spine for your arrows in flight). These two things, if done correctly, will result in this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img600/8143/aftera.jpg

So if you constantly find that your arrows shoot right, follow my guide below to get your arrows shooting straight.

Step 1: Establish correct arrow spine
Most Western style arrow charts do not apply well to the Hwarang. So you will have to do it with a little trial and error.

a)    Begin by using your current arrows. Draw and shoot as per normal. If you arrows go right, proceed to b

b)    Draw your arrows back a little further then your normal draw length ( we are talking millimeters here) e.g. 4-5 mm and release. Repeat the process  a few times, drawing a little further back each time i.e. 4-5 mm. Provided your arrows are long enough (31-33.5”), you will eventually reach a point where your arrows start to fly left. Once this happens, you know your arrows are in the correct spine range for your bow.

c)    On the other hand, once you’ve reached maximum draw, i.e. you’ve run out of arrow length to draw and your arrows are still flying right, your arrows are either too stiff or your arrows are not long enough, or, you are not drawing to your full draw length (I believe the max arrow length in trad Korean archery is around 33-3.5”, so use this measurement as a guide). You will either have to swap out the points with heavier ones or get softer spined or longer arrows of the same spine as your current arrows.


Step 2: Establish correct & consistent draw length to ensure correct dynamic arrow spine in flight.

a)    Once you have found the right arrows to use using the above method, go on to step b

b)    Start with your normal draw length and release an arrow. Repeat the process by drawing the bow further and further back - by about 2-3mm more each time. This can be a tricky process and a little patience is required.

Best way to do it is to mark out the last 1-2 inch of your arrows in 2-3mm increments and get a friend to spot for you with the markings against your bow thumb knuckle as a reference / anchor  point. Again you will find that once you get closer and closer to that sweet spot in draw length, your  arrows will start to fly straighter and straighter down range. Choose the draw length that gives you the straightest flight down range and mark it on your arrow. You have now established the correct draw distance that will give your arrows the straightest dynamic spine as they are shot.

c)    Then using some thick sewing threads, super glue them on the point that you have marked. This will be your anchor point from now on. Do not worry about the threads coming off, they won't.

http://imageshack.us/a/img685/9486/arrowthreads.jpg


You should now be able to shoot your hwarang by aiming it directly toward the target and watch your arrows fly centered from now on smile

http://imageshack.us/a/img600/8143/aftera.jpg

That's it. You are done smile
                                                                             No more right flying arrows!!

                                                          Happy Shooting smile

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

gpang, Thanks for your complete explanation I also have that problem and decided to abandon the thumb ring, now I will try again with your recommendations.
felix

Thumbs up +1

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Your most welcome Pakealur smile

Try it out and let us know how it went

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Hello gpang788,
I'm glad you have solved your problem.
One thing that should be considered when using a new technique is muscle memory and aiming method, remember your body has trained to use a completely different system, even down to how you aim. It will take a long time to re train.
The arrow is far more important than the bow and though you have found something that has worked for you, it may not be the same for another. For every perfect arrow setup ( spine, weight, length, point, fletching ) there are other setups with adjustments, that work just as well. In other words, I could get the same performance from a number of arrows of different spec. For instance, there is nothing to suggest that a shorter, weaker spined arrow would not perform similarly.

Thumbs up +1

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Hi Hun,

Appreciate & thanks for your comments.

I do agree that there may be no one size fits all approach when it comes to archery. Muscle memory and such do take time to be reconditioned. While there may be other setups out there that may work well, just exactly what they are, are not very well known, at least to my knowledge.

What’s frustrating as an aspiring thumbring archer like myself is that, when it comes to Western style archery, there are tons of information out there on how to tune your bow, arrows etc but yet, very little such information is available when it comes to this style of trad archery even though there are a fair number of such archers worldwide, I believe.

While I also agree that my guide may not work for everybody, I hope that it can, at least be used as a starting point or as a point of reference.

I also sincerely  encourage more people i.e. within the thumbring archery community, to be more open and come forward and share what they know, so that more people like myself, who, due to circumstance, have to make do with very little or no coaching at all, can benefit.

Thumbs up

6 (edited by storm 2013-12-21 11:26:34)

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Yes, the issue can be solved like this. But the nice part about shooting with the thumb ring is that it is possible to shoot a wide range of arrow spines and draw lengths without affecting accuracy.

The western technique is aligning the arrow with the target when the arrow is at full draw. The grip on the bow is relaxed, without any torque applied, which keeps the bow in the direction of the target at all times. When the arrow is released, it will deviate from the desired direction. This is overcompensated by using the "correct" spine. See the top image in the attached diagram.

A better technique (but much harder), is to keep the arrow aligned with the target at all times, even after releasing the string. In order to achieve this, the bow must be moved "away from the arrow", by rotating the grip. The correct torque applied to the bow will get almost any arrow to fly straight. See the bottom image in the attached diagram.

But how much torque should we apply to the bow handle? The answer is that it varies based on arrow spine and draw weight, although not too much. Also, here is where arrow spine comes into play, but in a different way from the western style. The bow string will not always follow a direct line from the arrow nock to the bow handle.  A stiffer arrow will tend to keep its direction better and therefore allow for a bigger variation of bow limb to string angle (as seen from above), especially at full draw. Also, a weaker bow allows for the same thing. Another variation is the position of the arrow nock at full draw, which may not be in the same plane with the bow limbs. This can be used to compensate the initial deviation of the string when it leaves the thumb.

Of course, there are a lot of variables to consider, and good shooting will depend on getting everything right. This is very different to western archery where a good setup alone can solve this aiming issue. Remember: The arrow is the barrel of the gun, not the bow!

Post's attachments

bow_direction.png 8.57 kb, 3 downloads since 2013-01-31 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Hi Storm,

Thanks for the helpful tip smile Am quite keen to try it out.

So what you are saying is, use bow torque to compensate for arrow drift to the right?

If you over torque the bow, would that send the arrow off target? e.g. to the left?

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Yes, but only a bit, and especially with low spine arrows. The amount is much less than they tend to go to the right. Thomas has a video on youtube where he shows how to grip the bow, away from the forearm - I think it is about Kaya ktb. Just squeeze the bow a bit more and torque is created as you draw. You don't need to actively rotate the wrist.

I made this movie last year ... maybe it helps to visualize the motion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9pcei7cRcU

Thumbs up +1

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Ok got it.

So in short, align arrows straight on with target, then shoot and torque bow anti-clockwise by squeezing bow handle. Can one get really accurate with this method?

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

A forum member harvested a wild hog at 40 meters away with a 75# YMG.   smile   I guess it's the archer who makes the difference.

gpang788 wrote:

Ok got it.

So in short, align arrows straight on with target, then shoot and torque bow anti-clockwise by squeezing bow handle. Can one get really accurate with this method?

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

WarBow wrote:

A forum member harvested a wild hog at 40 meters away with a 75# YMG.   smile   I guess it's the archer who makes the difference.

gpang788 wrote:

Ok got it.

So in short, align arrows straight on with target, then shoot and torque bow anti-clockwise by squeezing bow handle. Can one get really accurate with this method?

Noted smile  smile

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

I think a big difference for me has been shooting on the off side and off centre as compared to my recurve. I shoot left handed and if I was to pick up my recurve today my arrows would go wide to the right. It takes me less shot to correct with my recurve but I have also been shooting it for alot longer.

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

storm wrote:

Yes, but only a bit, and especially with low spine arrows. The amount is much less than they tend to go to the right. Thomas has a video on youtube where he shows how to grip the bow, away from the forearm - I think it is about Kaya ktb. Just squeeze the bow a bit more and torque is created as you draw. You don't need to actively rotate the wrist.

I made this movie last year ... maybe it helps to visualize the motion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9pcei7cRcU

Storm,
This is an intriguing idea. It does seems to me the only way one could hope to apply torque quickly enough to affect the arrow as it leaves the bow is to pre-apply it in the grip. I notice  your shooter in the video is holding his hand in a knuckles forward position as if throwing a punch. That takes a good deal more strength to hold the bow during the draw than letting it rest in the cup of the hand. But it would pre-apply torque that would be released with connective tissue in your hand snapping back much more quickly than you could manage with conscious muscle movement. Excellent video.

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

It does seems to me the only way one could hope to apply torque quickly enough to affect the arrow as it leaves the bow is to pre-apply it in the grip

: YES, YES, YES! The tricky part is applying the same torque every time.

The bow is like a horse: He is stronger but he must not know that. If you are weak and let him win (meaning just letting it rest it in the cup of the hand), then the shot will be weak...without spirit, as the japanese would say. You must be strong every step of the way, and try to push with the top of your palm and pull with the little finger, rotating the bow forward. In Arab archery it is said that the lower syiah should strike your shoulder after the arrow is released. Strangely enough, I improved my accuracy with Korean bows a graet deal just by doing this forward rotation or push. Push is actually not the right ord, because, as you noticed, you should not actively push, put put tension in the grip, both forward and lateral. Still, the forward tension is much more important I feel, but it cannot function without the lateral one. I still have not found the answer here. Maybe you have seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbraY11ZpmM
It is visible that with more forward tension, the bow also rotates more laterally. Unfortunately I did not had the time to investigate further...or to shoot as much as I would like.

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Storm,
Well I’ll be damned. It works!  I spent much of Friday evening twisting the hell out of my 45#@28” YMG Hwarang laterally and forward as you described while shooting at 30 meters. The LED lit nocks I use to check flight out of the bow flew much straighter, some like bullet tracers. They normally wiggle out of the bow and stabilize at about 20 meters due to the helical fletching. The Hwarang was performing like a centershot bow.
I think I understand what you’re doing now. You’re creating a dynamic centershot arrow release with this bow handle twisting technique. The dynamic is a second force vector applied to the arrow nock by the twisted limbs releasing their stored energy. It is at a right angle to the main force vector applied by the limbs returning to brace position when you release the string. It has to be applied precisely in the same 10-20 milliseconds that the arrow nock is still in contact with the string after release or it has no effect. You have to move the launching arrow nock about 1.25 cm or half an inch to the right before it leaves the bow. That will put the back of the arrow in alignment with the path of the front of the arrow as it leaves the bow. The arrow will fly straight regardless of its spine. It just requires a little twist of the back of the bow handle to the right during that fleeting instant. The problem is that no human being can contract their muscles that fast no matter how strong or quick they are. But you can make the bow move that fast by pre-twisting at full draw and  suddenly releasing stored elastic energy in the twist. I was wrong before about the stored energy being in the connective tissue of the hand and wrist. It’s in the bow , in the twist maintained by holding your anchor at full draw.

storm wrote:

You must be strong every step of the way, and try to push with the top of your palm and pull with the little finger, rotating the bow forward. In Arab archery it is said that the lower syiah should strike your shoulder after the arrow is released. Strangely enough, I improved my accuracy with Korean bows a graet deal just by doing this forward rotation or push. Push is actually not the right ord, because, as you noticed, you should not actively push, put put tension in the grip, both forward and lateral. Still, the forward tension is much more important I feel, but it cannot function without the lateral one. I still have not found the answer here. Maybe you have seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbraY11ZpmM
It is visible that with more forward tension, the bow also rotates more laterally. Unfortunately I did not had the time to investigate further...or to shoot as much as I would like.

Thumbs up

16 (edited by gpang788 2013-06-16 15:34:01)

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

tonygt19,

Very interesting - especially with the lit nocks smile

How was your grouping at 30ms?

Did you have to grip really hard or just mildly hard?

I assume to get a consistently tight grouping you would also have to
apply the same amount of grip / torque very time?

Thumbs up

17 (edited by tonygt19 2013-06-20 03:19:03)

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Gpang788,
Ha ha, all nocks should be lit! I shoot at dusk because I have a long commute to get home and I never have much sunlight left. In the dimming light I can see exactly how my arrows are flying and where they hit. I can't tell you how many arrows I've recovered  buried  in the grass  that I never would have found if their nocks weren't looking like little glow worms in the thatch. The lit nocks are expensive now but the prices will come down because they are LED's and that industry is moving forward quickly.

This technique won't correct bad or inconsistent form but your  arrows will fly straighter to their random destinations.

I've been shooting the 45#@28" Hwarang for about a year now with incorrectly spined arrows. At 30 m I can put most of my arrows in an 8 inch diameter paper plate stuck to a straw bale with three chopsticks. Just barely, thanks to the fletching. But the arrows often stick out at slightly different angles. I didn't notice this until I started using blunt tips. With points the arrows went all the way through the bale to hide in the grass. The arrows are correctly spined for my 70 lb bow. That one is hard to twist but I don't need to because the spine corrects for the off center arrow rest. With the two twists, rotary and vertical on the 45 Lb bow the arrows shoot correctly out of both bows.

With the 45 lb bow I grip mildly hard but the bow limbs are easy to twist. Same with the vertical tilt forward. Like Storm indicated the pressure has to be exactly the right amount and be consistent with each shot. Too much or too little rotary pressure would not correctly align the tip to nock arrow flight. Too much top to bottom pressure seems to make the arrow dive. I've only nailed it a few times out of many dozens of shots. I think this will take months of daily practice to get it to work consistently. And it will be different for each bow. It doesn't work well on the Salukis. They are designed not to allow limb twist.

I've often wondered why the Hwarang bows, as long as they've been around are still made to be unforgiving bows. Several reviews have mentioned that. Now I think they are made that way so advanced archers can apply tweaks in the draw if they have taken the time to learn to do that.


gpang788 wrote:

tonygt19,

Very interesting - especially with the lit nocks smile

How was your grouping at 30ms?

Did you have to grip really hard or just mildly hard?

I assume to get a consistently tight grouping you would also have to
apply the same amount of grip / torque very time?

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Gpang788,
So, I struggled with a way to photograph the wiggle in the arrow flight that a lit nock reveals. I put my camera over my left shoulder after dark. It is about 9PM with a moonlit sky. The target is several bales of straw with a paper plate pinned to the front. It is lit with LED lawn lights. The target is about 50 m which is a distance I don't normally shoot at. Camera is exposing for 20 seconds at f11 and ISO 200. During that time lapse exposure I take a quick shot. The lit nock traces a path in the scene. This is a first attempt. Lots of room for improvement in both the photography and in shooting skills. I can already see two superimposed oscillations in the nock's path  toward the target (which I failed to hit). The shorter oscillation is likely to be the string's displacement over my thumb in my release. The second longer period oscillation is probably the archer's paradox caused by the arrow tip's resting inertia causing a flex in the arrow as the string drives the arrow forward. The technique Storm described would minimize the longer oscillation and straighten the arrow path. Me getting smoother and more deft with the thumb release would minimize the shorter oscilllation.

Post's attachments

lit nock.jpg 1.42 mb, 2 downloads since 2013-06-20 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

tonygt19 wrote:

This technique won't correct bad or inconsistent form but your  arrows will fly straighter to their random destination

Haha..very nice!

The picture looks great..I'll have to get some lighted nocks and try it it out.

Every hwarang bow is different. The main difference is in the stiffness of the lower and upper limbs. For this reason, some may need more pressure on the upper limb, and other less. I found that lighter bows are more unstable (probably because they are easier to twist). The weird thing is that you cannot apply too much forward force. For me, the more the better. My accuracy increases a lot with this technique, especially with lighter bows. I remember once I could not hit anywhere near a coin at 5 m with a 25# bow. When I applied forward pressure, it started to work really well.

Another thing you could try is bareshafts(at 10m or so). When you think your technique is good enough, try this. But make sure there is nobody around, as the arrows can ricochet in any direction. Also, expect some broken shafts.

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Really cool photo  smile

At first glance, the flight path looked really random with all that paradox going on.

Upon careful examination, I do notice a pattern beginning to emerge. I can see 2 1/4 ?? oscillations leading up to impact.

Always imagined that for a 50 m shot, arrow should oscillate more?

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

gpang788 wrote:

Really cool photo  smile

At first glance, the flight path looked really random with all that paradox going on.

Upon careful examination, I do notice a pattern beginning to emerge. I can see 2 1/4 ?? oscillations leading up to impact.

Always imagined that for a 50 m shot, arrow should oscillate more?

Gpang788,
My mistake for not defining my terms. An oscillation can refer to a single wave in a series or the whole series of a single frequency. I meant the latter. I think there are two superimposed frequencies of oscillation being traced by the lit nock in a single flight in my photo. The longer frequency oscillation is due to the phenomenon that causes the archer’s paradox. When a long flexible shaft is propelled by a force from the rear its first reaction will be to flex as the front resists moving while the rear accelerates forward. This is most easily seen in the atlatl, the predecessor to the arrow.  See < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkK2vEZ5bTk >. This is especially true when the front and rear are not in perfect alignment with the force applied. That oscillation is drawn as wave form #1.  The second oscillation is a higher frequency waveform which I believe is caused by the thumb release. The string escapes more quickly than the thumb can move itself out of the way and so goes around the thumb to some extent. That causes a second rhythmic sideways displacement as seen here. <  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96KGWC0PB6s > This sideways frequency is higher with more waves put into the arrow. Watch the string ‘s sideways movement closely. This I think corresponds to the drawn waveform #2 in my photo. If you put both waveforms into one line it would look like a string of W’s and M’s rather than a simple sine wave. That’s the pattern in the path the lit nock draws.

Post's attachments

lit nock explained.jpg 1.36 mb, 1 downloads since 2013-06-25 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

In my opinion the high frequency oscillation shows the rotation of the arrow as it bends - it is a combined motion of the two. The amplitude shows how much the arrow bends. A lower spine arrow (or bad release) will create a larger amplitude.

Thumbs up

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

Yes, that was my first impression as well. A circular movement of a point light (the nock)  rotating around an  axis of flight would appear as a sine wave when viewed at right angles to the flight path. But my camera was recording from above and behind the flight. Then the nock rotating off axis would draw a spiral path.  When I looked closely at frames 1:58-2:07 in the second video it seems that the nock doesn’t rotate off center.  Even while the arrow is rotating the oscillations remain horizontal. I didn’t expect this.

Thumbs up

24 (edited by hnoor0055 2016-04-05 07:25:18)

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

I found that lighter bows are more unstable (probably because they are easier to twist). The weird thing is that you cannot apply too much forward force. For me, the more the better. My accuracy increases a lot with this technique, especially with lighter bows.


________________
== Solitaire ==

Thumbs up

25 (edited by Pedro C 2016-07-22 02:51:48)

Re: Solved -How to get arrows to shoot straight & not right on the Hwarang

The pictures are gone... curse imageshack
I ought to try slow-motion recording "forward khatra" because I don't understand how it can help arrow flight, though apparently it really does.
I'm annoyed by having to spine match, but it may be better than doing torque/khatra. one less thing that could go wrong and make one miss? besides Gao  Ying was against it to a point for that reason. I might end up doing a decent amount of forward pressure and only a little bit sideways just from back tension, but without really trying nor applying tons of pressure

My arrows all seem to go to the right yet they fly tail right. aiming with the arrow on the right is a bit weird, might have to be more 'instinctive' which is also difficult. But Gao Ying was all about aiming with the left edge of the bow and all that, maybe I have to position my bow and draw hands differently as well