can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery (Page 1 of 3)

nope, just charts posted on the ATARN facebook group...
well made selfbows can have a lot of cast though

from:

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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid … permPage=1

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid … permPage=1

May be shooting technique or difficulty at getting a light enough arrow for long distances that's still stiff enough with the longer draw length of most Korean bows.. which may perform better at ~8 grains per pound, best for shooting 145 meters without the wind affecting it as much as a lighter arrow?

But then there's overdraws. tong-ah may have more friction than a siper..

Thanks for posting the charts. That Monus guy seems to build a quick bow! I think you may be right assuming the disadvantage of the long draw korean bows thus requiring a relatively stiff, long and heavier arrow.

There are guys who build all wood flight bows and shoot them with some tiny 5gpp arrows, no "standard" bow can compete with such setups, arrow speeds are way over 250fps...
Most of them bows have a rather short draw lenght which keeps arrow weight low.

I have both a Grozer Turkish bow and a Kaya bow. I haven't finished my work, or published the data yet, but both bows are nominally 50#s and at 27" draw they're 1lbs different draw weight. At 27" draw the energy stored (in foot pounds) divided by the poundage held is 1.01 for the grozer and 1.08 for the Kaya meaning the Kaya stores 6% more energy. At 31", full draw in my case, that gap has opened up to 8% in favor of the Kaya. Why a such odd unit analysis, energy stored over poundage held? Two reasons. 1) it levels the playing field, meaning you can now compare bows of vastly different draw weights for energy storage efficiency. 2) Early draw weight is, in essence, "free" because you only feel the weight you're holding at full draw.

For what its worth, at 31", my Hwarang is 4% behind the Kaya. Looking at the curves, it is obvious why too: the less reflexed profile reduces its early draw weight. At 9" draw it is 74% of the Kaya, by 11" it is 81% of the Kaya. It keeps closing the gap up to 27" where it is <2% behind, but ends up at just 96% at 31". I have a Spitfire too that I'll add to this datapool at some point. All this, BTW, will be published on my facebook page as I accumulate and digest it. Chrono work is next. Unfortunately I blew out my shoulder (not bow related) so at the moment my Hwarang is beyond me. Give it time. I should also note that energy stored is significantly different than energy delivered, unless of course you intend to shoot infinite mass arrows. I don't need a chrono though to tell you that both my Kaya and Hwarang are significantly more efficient than my Grozer Turkish. That bow, love it as I do, seems to have been designed with little understanding of efficiency. Those siyahs are frigging massive.

TL;DR, while I know Grozer has knocked out some new Turkish designs lately, I highly doubt they're in a different class from a quality Korean bow, at least given the example I own. It is also worth noting that these are all modern reproductions, and one should be cautious drawing conclusions about ancient cultures from that.

Hope all this was helpful/informative.

Bluelake can tell you which bow I have, however FWIW I bought it quite recently and it is as powerful as he would allow me to specify.

I also want to be VERY clear about something: storing more energy doesn't necessarily mean the bow will be more efficient in regards to #@draw length to projectile FPS conversion. The 4% difference in stored energy is also quite small. If the numbers I've seen circulated on this forum are accurate, the Hwarang will be more efficient at converting it to arrow energy, at least with light arrows. If they were equally as efficient at converting their stored energy, the 4% difference would manifest itself as about a 6fps disadvantage for a bow which is ~50#@28" drawn to 31". That is larger than the velocity margin of error in our experiments, but is smaller than the bowyer's poundage margin of error, so again either way if efficiency were the same and you ordered two 50# bows you wouldn't be able to guess which would shoot faster in advance. And there is no reason to think efficiency would be the same either, because again the few numbers I've been able to dig up on this forum suggest the Hwarangs shoot surprisingly fast for their poundage, but without a lot more data that is just speculation.

TL;DR, don't make the mistake of over-reaching with your interpretations of the data. That said, I've long been curious as to why the Hwarangs have less reflex than other modern material Korean bows. That little mid-working-limb deflex is surprising, at least in the lower poundage bows. In the max power, ~90# bows, I'm grateful for it as it allows the maximum safe draw length to reach my draw length, 31". Believe me, even people familiar with my crazy short bows go running for cover when they see that Hwarang's limbs go parallel with my arm.

does it look like this?

seems a bit different from the http://www.koreanarchery.org/classic/hwarangbow.html one, maybe an older or different model

string seems to be twisted about 16 times on that picture..

I think Adam Karpowicz said something about straight bows with low limb mass doing very well with light arrows, with reflex mattering more for heavier arrows.

That doesn't surprise myself.  I've heard people for years saying the 'basic Turks' by Grozer are the one thing that saves his rep, but after seeing the vast majority of his work over the years I always found even that statement hard to believe.

Not surprised of that either.  Heard from a few sources here and there how all the bows that guy makes seem by and large influenced by Korean synthetics despite how they all have different names which appear to be nothing more than marketing angles.

Ohhhhhhh yeah.

Thanks for posting this info.  I'm curious myself to see how the chrono results will pan out.

What page?

I've found it interesting that it seems like Korean horn bows look kinda like the Hwarang YMG bows when just unstrung after being used for a while? Just based on one video though. Maybe a bit more reflexed. Still doesn't say much about how they'd perform in flight archery compared to the Korean synthetics...

I read in the spitfire page that light, fast arrows are better at penetration.. I doubt that, but still they'd travel flatter and what matters most is hitting the right spot.

Generally, you have more kinetic energy with heavier arrows.. at least with more "normal" bows.

I've known Chris for years.  We first met waaaaayyy back when I sold him and a friend of his several Hwarangs.  We met at a McDonald's somewhat halfway between my Michigan home and their Canadian one.  Chris was very polite and respectful and didn't talk much then.

Later, he came out with his own bow, which he called a "Hwarang"; to say I was a little miffed is putting it mildly.  It greatly confused many people. 

Yes, he could be abrasive.  However, he and I generally got along fine.

I see I've come across a member of Chris' fan club......

I think this is where I should step aside. No ill feelings toward anyone.

Please do Geo.

Well, well.  Look what popped in the mail yesterday thanks to Amazon same day shipping :

Tripod courtesy of Target:

Up for trial are the usual suspects plus a few more not shown:

So here's the list:

Saluki Crimean Tatar Hybrid: 65@30"
Golhan Turk Bow: 58@28"
YMG Korean: 55@31"
Mariner 'Han I'/Khotanese: 50@32"
HMG Korean: 45@31"
Saluki Damascus: 40@30"

All of these were chronied with a 32 inch in total length four fletched Goldtip 5575 arrow and drawn to 32 inches with the exception of Golhan's Turk bow since it really only permits a 30 inch draw at best and so that's what I drew it to. 

So with out further adieu, here are max speeds within observable range relative to other readings I was getting:

Saluki Crimean Tatar Hybrid: 222 fps
Golhan Turk Bow: 183 fps
YMG Korean: 216 fps
Mariner 'Han I'/Khotanese: 173 fps (note: average speeds were actually 160-163...may be more of an anomaly)
HMG Korean: 186 fps
Saluki Damascus: 181 fps

Consistent with previous reports here the Crimean Tatar Hybrid performs extraordinarily well though because characteristics  vary so much among my bows its perhaps not entirely fair to strut it about the place although one other gentleman who posted here in the past got a score of 207 fps if memory serves well with his 40# Crim Tatar by Saluki.  Say what you want about Lukas, the man makes a pretty damn good product in terms of fps and the penetration of this particular bow is very good even with my relatively skinny carbon.

And of course the Koreans do extremely well in this area, right up there with Lukas' products.  Matter of fact the 45# HMG's results were the big surprise of the day for me.  That bow was a fraction of the cost of all the others here, isn't nearly as pretty, yet has no trouble at all casting an arrow at a relatively respectable speed.

Also consistent with what I've heard is of course the Mariner.  I love this bow actually and I think really if one is going to start learning thumbring shooting Asiatic archery they should really begin with these bow since they're so easy to use/comfortable.  I even taught a noob once how to do this type of archery with one of them and it went extraordinarily well.  Unfortunately they're on the slower side but its pretty consistent with what Justin Ma would tell you.  Regardless, I'm probably going to pick up a Yuan style bow by Mariner in the near future.

Other interesting thing to note are my speeds with the Golhan.  They were clustering all more around the 180-183 range provided my draw was just right.  Very different from the 190 to 201 scores I was hearing about but then again I don't remember what the grain per pound factor was in that video so it may just be that.

So there you have it.  No secret facebook pages, no propaganda, no nonsense, just pure unadulterated 'crucible of truth'.

Unfortunately, I don't have a NitwitFire horse bow, but if you're in the Mid-Atlantic area and want it chronied, drop me a line and I'll gladly red pill the heck out of that thing.

And I even had time today to make Bulgarian burek:

Now I'm the tr00 Bulgar master-Hunnic Warlord of the steppes!  And I ain't even Bulgarian.