Topic: Straight Mind and Straight Body

In Korean jeong shim jeong gi (정심정기/正心正己).  The actual meaning will vary depending upon who you ask.  Please discuss your thoughts on its meaning.

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2 (edited by jiao 2010-10-26 13:33:15)

Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

from philosophical::)
we can not suffer from why we are straight man , but this world not  need straight man has no good result , for the good lifeing in this world. do not straight say the true anywhere, Copernicus is a good example if you are Attic faith , something you take it is right and gospel but other take it is wrong, do you want for your gospel star the war or fight? Marxism take the war or fight as right way, also Lincoln fight southerner lots American die, the straight form china Confucianism, illogicality is anywhere, Marxism depaint it is fight, china Confucianism depaint dont do more two extreme, keep adiaphorous is right, because that time china has more country and so many war so many people die, a peace ism it is

so i will ask , what are straight? you must to know what are twist, the twist man will tell you what are straight smile how many joint and bones twist not straight in korean archery?

form archery, if you are want to show you are best archery or dont shoot too bad become the joke,your mentation has pressure make bad effect,maybe  the tradition archery in east is not for the champion and its cup and bonus and honour. only target,you,bow,arrow in your mind, maybe nothing in mind ,or only straight in mind. whether how twist your body, it can not twist the straight in your mind, all twist for the straight

i am bullshit lots to some good archer mentor

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

Sounds like "Anima Sana In Corpore Sano". 

Our state of mind reflects our disposition to feel & react in appropriate or not so appropriate ways to our world.  This disposition not only defines our ethos, it also has a powerful effect on our physical well-being.

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

This reminds me very much of a moment in The Last Samurai when Katsumoto's son is explaining to Tom Cruise why he keeps losing the fight training with the sword.

"Too many mind. Mind the sword, mind the enemy, mind the people watching..... NO MIND"

I especially liked what Jiao said about it not being about the cup, awards, bonus, becoming a champion etc, it is just about you, the bow, the arrow and being one with the whole process. This is a major part of the reason why I have abandoned modern competitive Archery and moved full time to the traditional style. There is no pressure to compete, for everything to be perfect, to have the latest and greated equipment, tuning to perfection etc, the focus for me is on enjoying the shot and relaxing into it. It has completely changed my outlook on Archery as a whole and has brought a whole new enjoyment to the sport that I felt was being crushed by competetive natures in modern shooting.

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

Artemiz wrote:

Sounds like "Anima Sana In Corpore Sano".

Is actually:  mens sana in corpore sano ''A healthy mind in a healthy body''. Over time, the phrase has come to mean that only a healthy body can produce or sustain a healthy mind and vice versa. Is a saying of the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Thales, "Νοῦς ὑγιὴς ἐν σώματι ὑγιεῖ". Is commonly addressed today to kind-of forma mentis the ancient Greeks hoping to achieve trough sports and knowledge. In fact the phrase is derived from Satire X of the Roman poet Juvenal which intended to teach his fellow Roman citizens that in the main, their prayers for such things as long life are misguided. That the gods had provided man with virtues which he then lists for them.

-Over time and separated from its context, the phrase has come to have a range of meanings. It can be construed to mean that only a healthy body can produce or sustain a healthy mind. Its most general usage is to express the hierarchy of needs: with physical and mental health at the root.


About the 정심정기/正心正己 above. Since i never study the contexts or the texts i will abstain from any kind of comment. I like to quote prof. Pregadio:  "There’s one more important thing. I can hardly imagine a Chinese — or Indian, Japanese, Tibetan, Persian, etc. — adept of a tradition who does not know, study, and often memorize the main texts of his or her tradition. Knowledge of the written records of a tradition should also be important for a Western follower. Without that knowledge, a Western follower could easily end up twisting and distorting the tradition that he or she claims to belong to, according to his or her own particular perspective. Any Eastern tradition teaches exactly the opposite attitude: until one reaches a truly advanced stage, one should follow the tradition “as is,” with no attempt to reinterpret it or adapt it to any contingent circumstance. The re-adaptation (or rather, re-codification) of a teaching to different historical or social circumstances is a very important and interesting phenomenon in the history of any traditional teaching."


M.

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

Mattia wrote:

About the 정심정기/正心正己 above. Since i never study the contexts or the texts i will abstain from any kind of comment. I like to quote prof. Pregadio:  "There’s one more important thing. I can hardly imagine a Chinese — or Indian, Japanese, Tibetan, Persian, etc. — adept of a tradition who does not know, study, and often memorize the main texts of his or her tradition. Knowledge of the written records of a tradition should also be important for a Western follower. Without that knowledge, a Western follower could easily end up twisting and distorting the tradition that he or she claims to belong to, according to his or her own particular perspective. Any Eastern tradition teaches exactly the opposite attitude: until one reaches a truly advanced stage, one should follow the tradition “as is,” with no attempt to reinterpret it or adapt it to any contingent circumstance. The re-adaptation (or rather, re-codification) of a teaching to different historical or social circumstances is a very important and interesting phenomenon in the history of any traditional teaching."


M.

Good point, Mattia.  However, in the case of Korean traditional archery, archers, whether Korean or not, are expected to become familiar with, and follow, the nine precepts (궁도구계훈).  As even Koreans sometimes interpret the different precepts a bit differently, it becomes difficult to know, absolutely, what the original intention was.  The first character, jeong, can mean "straight", "upright", "justice", "righteousness", etc., so you can see that the meaning can alter, based upon which interpretation one chooses.  I think, though, as we are talking about a physical structure (one's body), straight/upright would apply in that case (the "mind" part clouds it a bit).


T

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

Especially in asian languages words never have an ''absolute'' meaning. That's why only the practical oral tradition could explain the real sense of this kind of ''songs''.


M.

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

Mattia wrote:

"There’s one more important thing. I can hardly imagine a Chinese — or Indian, Japanese, Tibetan, Persian, etc. — adept of a tradition who does not know, study, and often memorize the main texts of his or her tradition. Knowledge of the written records of a tradition should also be important for a Western follower. Without that knowledge, a Western follower could easily end up twisting and distorting the tradition that he or she claims to belong to, according to his or her own particular perspective. Any Eastern tradition teaches exactly the opposite attitude: until one reaches a truly advanced stage, one should follow the tradition “as is,” with no attempt to reinterpret it or adapt it to any contingent circumstance. The re-adaptation (or rather, re-codification) of a teaching to different historical or social circumstances is a very important and interesting phenomenon in the history of any traditional teaching."

Actually, this aspects of eastern culture can be disconcerting for a western follower. However, let's consider two more things:
1) I'm fond of chinese and japanese popular novels. I have found that in many of those stories, the hero would achieve success by finding his own way, possibly against tradition upholders. This schema is very close to western novel tradition.
2) Western educational system is based on the study of tradition and science as well.

This makes me think that individual aspirations to break rules, and on the other side the collective wiseness that tends to transmit tradition, are both shared by humanity. It is chaos against order.

Maybe the difference is in the fact that challenging the tradition is not - or less - considered as incorrect in western culture. A matter of etiquette?

My two cents,

Olivier

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9 (edited by desheikh 2015-02-11 07:56:57)

Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

Its most general usage is to express the hierarchy of needs: with physical and mental health at the root.

______________
omair

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

bluelake wrote:

... in the case of Korean traditional archery, archers, whether Korean or not, are expected to become familiar with, and follow, the nine precepts (궁도구계훈).

And the last one is "do not touch another person's bow". Hah. I've done that plenty of times, though I always ask. I did touch the string of one without asking once, though didn't pick it up... ... bad. Still, even asking could annoy or worry an archer..?

Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

Pedro C wrote:
bluelake wrote:

... in the case of Korean traditional archery, archers, whether Korean or not, are expected to become familiar with, and follow, the nine precepts (궁도구계훈).

And the last one is "do not touch another person's bow". Hah. I've done that plenty of times, though I always ask. I did touch the string of one without asking once, though didn't pick it up... ... bad. Still, even asking could annoy or worry an archer..?

As with everything, it would depend upon the archer...

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

In the context of TKA, I think it means the right set of mind is reflected through your body. I heard archers practing tka (several videos on youtube but can't cite exactly which) say how you shoot depends a lot on your mental state at the shoot. so '정심정기/正心正己' probably means come with the proper mind set for the shoot and you will shoot well.

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Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

In order to squash the spam here a bit I will answer....

I know from practicing another art how difficult it can be for anyone to have proper let alone 'straight' form.  I see new people who can't get shoulders aligned straight, and others who may lean back or even towards the shot.  So how does having a 'straight' mind relate?

If straight means direct or focused in this sense, then possibly the ability to focus on what you are doing will straighten your body.

If straight means or relates to the spirit, then having such a mindset would perhaps make the body strong and allow it to straighten.

If straight means having a just way about the individual, then perhaps this reflects in the shooting form.

Of course I tied this to shooting and it need not be applied simply to this.  The connotations can go beyond our daily practice of archery.  It has been said after all that the mind is the most powerful organ in the body and what is in our mind can greatly influence the body. 

If the mind is 'straight' or lets say properly aligned or upright then so will the body.  The saying reminds us that we must sharpen our minds perhaps even more than our bodies.

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14 (edited by ShinLa 2019-04-11 22:03:51)

Re: Straight Mind and Straight Body

Should we be so literal?  Doesn't "Straight Mind and Straight Body" apply equally to both Korean traditional and Korean Olympic archery?  Yet the the physical form  of the archers is different.  Does that imply that just a "Straight Mind" will suffice or does the "Straight Mind" of one archery discipline follow the form of that discipline's "Straight Body" by being different in some way?

Perhaps what appears to be different is in actuality the same.  That the concept of "Straight Mind and Straight Body" transcends what we observe with our eyes and what we think with our brains.  And so applies equally to not only the two mentioned forms of Korean archery but also to any human endeavor.

A Zen approach.

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