Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Thanks for the info. Its possible that on the polish tests the korean bows are not being drawn to full potential.
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
geoarcher wrote:
So there you have it. No secret facebook pages, no propaganda, no nonsense, just pure unadulterated 'crucible of truth'.
I would just like to clear one thing up. The FB page I'm a part of isn't "secret," it is simply commercial and it is rude to post what could be rightly interpreted as commercial content on someone else's forum without asking permission, particularly if you're new. If you, or anyone else, would like to know it you can simply send me a PM.
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Hunterseeker5 wrote:
I would just like to clear one thing up. The FB page I'm a part of isn't "secret," it is simply commercial and it is rude to post what could be rightly interpreted as commercial content on someone else's forum without asking permission, particularly if you're new. If you, or anyone else, would like to know it you can simply send me a PM.
Fair enough then. Like I said before, I'm definitely interested so if you'd like just send a PM.
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Why be stingy with the info. We are all friends here.
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
morton509 wrote:
Why be stingy with the info. We are all friends here.
If bluelake says it is okay, I'll gladly drop the link. In the meantime, I PMed it to you.
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Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Hunterseeker5 wrote:
morton509 wrote:Why be stingy with the info. We are all friends here.
If bluelake says it is okay, I'll gladly drop the link. In the meantime, I PMed it to you.
I have no problem with commercial links, as long as something doesn't get spammy.
+1
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Thank you. 
Lets hope it doesn't get spammy, just the data and discussion.
So here is the introduction:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? … 9122972680 Some people might consider it boring, perhaps most people, but it sort of explains the whole what and why of the various analyses.
And here is the first data dump:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? … 9122972680
Again I want to emphasize that stored energy, unless you're shooting extremely heavy arrows, is SIGNIFICANTLY different from delivering it to said arrows. Adam Karpowicz's work, upon close inspection, reveals almost inhuman levels of bow efficiency in terms of converting stored energy to kinetic energy, even with very light arrows, however they actually store surprisingly little energy for their draw weight.
While linking to things, may as well link to this other (currently at the top) thread where we're looking at a few other bows' efficiency:
http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=679
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Thanks for the links. The more info the better.
34 2016-06-30 00:59:57 (edited by Mule 2016-06-30 01:05:40)
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Did someone say data dump? Here is the data I've been collecting
No energy storage/efficiency data as force draw curves are pretty rare but I've been collecting any speed/arrow mass/draw weight data I've seen
I also have some nice charts but need to learn how to do charts well in google spreadsheet, in the meantime here's a screenshot of the old excel chart
+1
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
That is an immense amount of data right there. I'm struggling to get my mouth around it though, so to speak. The scatter is huge. And what does that even mean? Variability in methodology, different bows with vastly different performance? I haven't the foggiest.
I do have a couple questions though:
For the compounds, I presume poundage is the bow's nominal poundage, meaning hypothetically peak poundage?
As for the rest, is poundage at 28", or full draw, or something else?
36 2016-07-01 11:48:51 (edited by Mule 2016-07-01 12:07:22)
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Most bows don't show too much variation. The Korean, Turkish, English longbow data for instance fit a trendline quite nicely, usually with a variation of +/-5fps which is reasonable. This could come from incorrect arrow spine, imperfect release/khatra, incorrect reported bow weight/draw length (people just reported the sticker weight instead of actual weight they shoot at) or simply different bow energy storage/efficiency.
The weird ones are the Japanese and PVC data. PVC well.. those are people making bows for <$10 so you'll have to take that for what it is. Not sure what's happening with the yumi data though. That's where you see the largest variation. A lot of those are averages of 3 or 4 shots that an archer took, and there's sometimes as much as 40fps difference between the fastest and slowest shot taken by the same archer. If I showed individual shots instead of shooter averages, the graph would be even crazier.
Yea compound is peak draw force, it's one of the slowest readings I've seen for a compound. I include it only because it's fun to see that a few trad bows can beat a compound bow (even if it's only a shitty one)
Poundage at full draw. I admit the data is a little flawed since this gives the advantage to bows shot with longer draw lengths like Korean vs Turkish bows.
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
I have learned a number of odd things in my testing so far. Spine, for example, can rob you of a lot more than 5 or so FPS. The thing that floored me though is I put a small piece of heatshrink around the base of my fletchings to smooth the transition for my thumb. I proceeded to shoot appallingly bad numbers. Wondering why, I removed it and re-shot. Turns out it was costing me about 20FPS on two of the bows. Seems impossible, but truth is stranger than fiction. Makes me wonder what'd happen if I slicked down the arrow with a little wax?
Is it really unfair to give the advantage to bows with longer draws though? History certainly doesn't seem to think so, different cultures adapting their bows to perform well for their own specific requirements. Adam Karpowicz notes, for example, that his Turkish bows transfer energy highly efficiently to both light and heavy arrows. What he seems to miss though is that his bows store significantly less energy than the bows intended to shoot much heavier arrows. I find this article on the subject (which I suspect you've already read) very interesting:
http://www.manchuarchery.org/korean-vie … hu-archery
38 2016-07-02 07:42:09 (edited by Pedro C 2016-07-02 07:44:41)
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
May want to use "arrow lube", haha.
I think, perhaps Korean bows are less forgiving than Manchu to small differences in draw length?
Nice graph, thanks
FRP means fiberglass?
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
fiberglass or carbon
+1
40 2016-07-03 20:24:19 (edited by jchocz 2016-07-03 20:26:10)
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Fresh result of the flight to the Czech archery competition Doubravsky bazant (2.7.2016 Ronov nad Doubravou):
Kaya WindFighter 60lb, bamboo arrow 30 "(splitted bamboo) .... 275 m
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Finally posted chrono data. Unsurprisingly, the Korean bows are significantly more efficient, both per pound and relative to their total stored energy, than the Grozer. I strongly suspect that, either the Grozer bows used in these competitions are special/modified, or technique plays a larger factor in range than bow performance, because I find it highly implausible that the Grozer would become more efficient with lighter arrows or that with its significant performance disadvantage it could outshoot one of these carbon Korean bows.
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
I read in the spitfire page that light, fast arrows are better at penetration.. I doubt that, but still they'd travel flatter and what matters most is hitting the right spot.
Depends what you want to penetrate: thin fast arrows for armor and heavy arrows for game/flesh.
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
storm wrote:
I read in the spitfire page that light, fast arrows are better at penetration.. I doubt that, but still they'd travel flatter and what matters most is hitting the right spot.
Depends what you want to penetrate: thin fast arrows for armor and heavy arrows for game/flesh.
Manchu bow vs. Turkish bow on steel plate armor? 
I guess blunt Manchu broadheads wouldn't do very well. maybe "plum needle". I think a heavy but thin (dense wood) arrow would do best
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Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
I know the thread had been dormant for month, but posting my comment for reference.
With less than 6 month of thumb draw experience, I achieved 216m with a Kaya KTB (40#, 50" length), and 236m with a Kaya Windfighter (50#).
Arrow had been a 31" slim Carbon with 500 gn in both cases. Distances had been measured with GPS.
+1
45 2017-05-14 00:53:23 (edited by Pedro C 2017-05-15 00:36:43)
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
500gn is very heavy for a flight arrow, for a Korean bow of that draw weight (standard for broadhead flight though)... that is actually quite amazing if the arrow is that heavy. Means the bow actually stores a decent amount of energy.
Do you shoot with khatra?
Wonder if I could approach 500m with my 50# songmugung and something like 200grain arrows
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
To sprinkle a little more data on this thread:
https://www.customthumbrings.com/blog/
So as of 5/15/17 we just published chrono data on the KTB Kingdom on the blog. In the coming weeks, there should be posts on a better Turkish (than the Grozer anyway) bow, and another Korean bow. Because links on the internet don't age particularly well though, here is a link to the post containing, at the time of writing, the most current data:
https://www.customthumbrings.com/blog/2 … tb-kingdom
My opinions on the whole Korean vs. Turkish bows for flight shooting have evolved somewhat. Obviously, if you look at the efficiency numbers of horn-sinew composites, even the best modern laminates are nowhere close. That said, I'd argue that in a historical "competition," the Turkish bows which existed would win out. Why? Simple: purity of purpose. Historical Korean bows were war bows. The Turkish had war bows too, but for flight shooting I'd struggle to imagine even more efficient modern Korean horn-sinew composites would match up. These historical Turkish flight bows had absurd draw weights, intense preparation, and were made for a single purpose and with a comparatively short life expectancy. While I'm no expert on historical Korean archery, I'm not aware of any comparable fetish ergo Turkish would probably have been superior.
Now modern designs? Kicking the Grozer out, for obvious reasons, my money is on neck and neck with the edge perhaps going to the Koreans as there is a larger consumer base, more experienced bowyers, etc. Over the coming weeks, I suspect the data will bear this out.
+1
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Bit sad to see that Korean (hyeonmugung manufactured? Nomad KTB Kingdom) lose to the second AF tatar. Less GPP but it's slower than the AF tatar?!? How long is that tatar bow? Or did you actually mean Turkish on that picture of the spreadsheet?
Wonder how the other Koreans - songmugung, yeonmugung, taegeuk - of the same draw weight would stack up.
The small grips are hard to do a low wrist hold with... I got a Segye bow with a similar grip and I just built up the grip with paper&glue, then leather. still together after several months.
Thanks for posting those results!
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Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
I have just a limited amount of arrows long enough ...
While it is a bit heavy, the FOC seems to be optimal. I purchased them about 15 years ago, in the "crap corner" of a hunting equipment shop. And replacing the vanes with feathers gave an extra 20 meters or so. Other carbon arrows of the same or less weight were consistently 10 .. 20 meters behind, so weight is not the only factor.
I don't do flight shooting for distance, rather for comparison of bows and arrows. With a Grozer G6 Nomad (45#) and a Kassai Bear (60#), a got about 200m, with the same arrow.
And yes, I shot with khatra, at least I think so. My technique is still in development, though.
But I think CTR's comment is "on target". Korean bows, just as Hungarian or other historical bows, are made to have the greatest possible effect on a moderately distant object. And heaving consumed Dr. Ashby's work, arrow weight distinctly beats arrow velocity when it comes to penetration.
Turkish flight shooting had been a kind of sports, consisting of an optimal bow and a very good shooting technique. But beside that, it had (IMHO) no value for hunting or military purposes.
49 2017-05-15 12:15:47 (edited by CTR 2017-05-15 13:03:21)
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
Pedro C wrote:
Bit sad to see that Korean (hyeonmugung manufactured? Nomad KTB Kingdom) lose to the second AF tatar. Less GPP but it's slower than the AF tatar?!? How long is that tatar bow? Or did you actually mean Turkish on that picture of the spreadsheet?
Wonder how the other Koreans - songmugung, yeonmugung, taegeuk - of the same draw weight would stack up.
The small grips are hard to do a low wrist hold with... I got a Segye bow with a similar grip and I just built up the grip with paper&glue, then leather. still together after several months.Thanks for posting those results!
I don't know who manufactured it, you tell me:
http://www.koreanbow.com/shop/index.php … ;id_lang=1
If you go digging back through the force draw data on the subject, you'll see it stacks rather severely as well. The numbers don't even fully express it, feels like you hit a wall. I shoot it a fair bit, but all in all not my favorite bow.
I think AF Archery lists it as 126cm string length and 130cm overall length. These Tatar bows they make are FAST, more reflex than all but my Kaya and spindly little thin Siyahs. I get the impression they're delicate as well. I have already popped one, longitudinal split straight up through the core and laminations because there is no wrapping above the grip. They replaced it, but talking with people it seems the general consensus is that "all" the Saluki style modern lam bows are delicate including the Mariners, laminated Alibows, and Salukis themselves.
While the Nomad lost to the AF Tatar, it also lost to the Kaya. I realize Kaya bows are derided a bit here, but honestly it just strikes me as more of a shooter's bow. Better grip, better efficiency, etc.
I'd love to test more bows, but there is a limit to the rate at which we'll purchase them. Anyone, people or manufacturers, are welcome to send us bows. Next up on my personal purchase list will be something like a 100# Manchu bow from Liang Zhi.
Anyway, keep an eye out. Up next monday is the AF Turkish bow. Didn't plan it that way, but seems like it is a bit on-the-nose. And then another nice Korean bow, one of my favorites, tied with my Hwarang.
+1
50 2017-05-15 13:06:25 (edited by Pedro C 2017-05-15 14:53:13)
Re: can korean horn bows match turkish flight bows in flight archery
You are drawing to 31"? It's strange that the Kingdom feels worse. It looks very similar, a bit lighter than the gukgungwon in your force draw curve. 48" version?
My 53" Nomad KTB feels smoother than my 50" Songmugung.. can draw 8 chi arrows (32.5" draw) more comfortably, while I think my songmugung hits a wall right at 32" so I use 7.5 chi arrows with it. I couldn't tell which was faster at 10m. Maybe i should try a longer distance later. They have very similar draw weight.
I was kind of expecting the Nomad bows to be faster than the Kayas. Guess not?..
That's a very nice length for the Tatar.