Topic: White Feather bows...

Wanting to replace my almost-broken Kaya KTB, I asked for a new one at a local dealer.
He offered me a "White Feathers" bow named "Carbon Forever" instead.
I tested it a few times, found it quite similar to the Kaya bow, and purchased one.

However, having a closer look, the bow is not a re-dressed Kaya.
Does anyone know what it is ?
A new brand name of Freddie archery, with a new (improved) design ?

There is a website, but "under construction" and barely functional.
My dealer suggested it is a brand of Freddie archery, produced for the non-Asian markets, mainly on instigation of JVD in the Netherlands.
I have no idea if this is true, but all label on the bow are in Latin characters (not Korean like KTB), and mostly in English.

And BTW, the bows are in about the same price range, just slightly cheaper than the "Nomad" bows.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

Just as an info, I took the bow out lat weekend on our club's shooting range.
Shooting it for about an hour, there seems to be no great difference to the (Kaya) KTB of the same poundage. I was using mediterranean draw exclusively, though.

The only difference - a large bruising at my bow arm. Never needed one with the Kaya, and still don't need one with the windfighter. Small differences with the grip, and a large one on my arm  yikes

And, the silvery arrow protection began to wear of after the first shots. I think I going to put some thin leather protection on.

Thumbs up

3 (edited by Pedro C 2017-05-16 12:31:39)

Re: White Feather bows...

The smaller handles just suck for a Korean style low wrist grip, IMO. You may want to build it up with something. I did my Segye korean bow just by gluing a bunch of paper from a grocery bag on it, then covering with leather.

Maybe the brace height is too low, too.

Sometimes I "randomly" start getting hit in the bow arm... then it stops... .

4 (edited by ragnar 2017-05-17 08:50:28)

Re: White Feather bows...

Two days before, I pulled my Grozer Nomad out of the corner, and got away without bruises. The Grozer grip is higher, but more narrow.
Brace height is quite low, at least compared to "normal" recurves. I can cross-check with the Windfighter. Or with the retired KTB.

I consider modifying the grip, but wait until I'm "ready" for thumb draw with this bow.

Edit:
Brace height of my Windfighter is even lower, about 5.2" compared to 5.6". Yet he doesn't slap me.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

After shooting the bow for a few times, there are very few noticeable differences to the Kaya KTB, both in handling and performance.
Exceptions are  the grip and the distinctively less durable arrow protection.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

Pedro C wrote:

Sometimes I "randomly" start getting hit in the bow arm... then it stops... .

For me that's when my elbow is pointing at the ground rather than to the side.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

oni wrote:
Pedro C wrote:

Sometimes I "randomly" start getting hit in the bow arm... then it stops... .

For me that's when my elbow is pointing at the ground rather than to the side.

Which I assume has a lot to do with the shape of the grip.
I had been shooting about 90 minutes yesterday with my Windfighter, and he hit me only 3 or 4 times.
Had been a bit sloppy then...
(Again, only talking Mediterranean style here.)

Thumbs up

8 (edited by oni 2017-05-26 09:35:51)

Re: White Feather bows...

ragnar wrote:

Which I assume has a lot to do with the shape of the grip.
I had been shooting about 90 minutes yesterday with my Windfighter, and he hit me only 3 or 4 times.
Had been a bit sloppy then...

Not really the grip's shape..  Form is still a conscious effort, for me & sometimes it's not all there.

Thumbs up

9 (edited by Pedro C 2017-05-26 21:03:31)

Re: White Feather bows...

oni wrote:
Pedro C wrote:

Sometimes I "randomly" start getting hit in the bow arm... then it stops... .

For me that's when my elbow is pointing at the ground rather than to the side.

How "inside the palm" the bow's handle is, affects that too.. still not sure of how I should grip the bow exactly. There seems to be plenty of variation possible anyway.

Re: White Feather bows...

ragnar wrote:

After shooting the bow for a few times, there are very few noticeable differences to the Kaya KTB, both in handling and performance.

Would you care to elaborate?

Thumbs up

11

Re: White Feather bows...

Remember that when you're shooting, as the ring slips off your release (fingers or ring) it is driven laterally. This is why, if you shoot fingers, you need to shoot off the left side of the bow and if you shoot with a ring you typically shoot off of the right. (rings cause less lateral deviation than fingers, so some people still shoot off the left with a ring) The point in this case though is you're impairing your ability to follow-through, and driving the string towards your arm.

If you look at where the arrow pass and nock would have to be in order to smack your arm, to shoot Mediterranean this almost "should" occur, since it is better to shoot arrows which aren't flaccid noodles. If you're shooting with a ring though, think about the level of flex that must be occurring in that arrow for the nock to be where the string is while the shaft is still passing the bow. Not good. I would also think it means your technique/follow through is not quite working properly. I shoot exclusively with a ring these days, just vastly more comfortable than fingers, and the only time I ever get smacked in the arm is when I'm shooting my KTB Kingdom (from Freddie Archery) and have a dry hand so can't sufficiently grip it to rotate it. It also coincides with sloppy arrow flight, which should be a surprise to nobody. Slower flights/heavier arrows make this easier.

My take on it anyway.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

Tinny.Tim wrote:
ragnar wrote:

After shooting the bow for a few times, there are very few noticeable differences to the Kaya KTB, both in handling and performance.

Would you care to elaborate?

Basically, the string slap in mediterranean style.

As notes elsewhere, I stopped shooting in thumb draw with such "heavy" bows, because I believe it messes up my immature technique.
I ordered a weaker bow (25#) for that training, which is currently at the customs.

And to elaborate a bit more - the difference is the handle. It is less "bulky" and more round than the Kaya grip I got used to.
I still have the Windfighter (basically a KTB without limb cover), and even with higher draw weight, I experience almost no string slap.
Again, talking about mediterranean only.

To be fair, both bows are not made for mediterranean style, which demands a different grip.
A normal recurve bow is usually held with just the thumb and the index finger, and basically pressed into the grove between both fingers.
The very common pistol grip of recurves is made just for that.

Once I'm proficient with my still-to-arrive weaker bow, I plan to shoot them (White Feather and Windfighter) in the "proper" way.
But not yet now ...

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

To give an update, I now had enough time to familiarize with my weaker training bow(s) from Alibow.
Because they are quite affordable, I ordered two, one 25#@28", another 30#@26".

In hindsight, however, I would perhaps have done differently.
The bows are fine. They look great, and cast the arrows much better than expected. Last week I hit the FITA target with a 600gn arrow on the 25# bow at first try (with a bit of luck ...).

However, both bows have an almost cylindrical round grip. Shooting them the same style as a korean bow (twist and rotation) is almost impossible, at least consistently.

After a time of confusion and trial-and-error,  I settled for tilt style, i.e. applying slight pressure with auricular and ring finger, to tilt the bow forward/downward on release. With a proper back tension, this works on both bows (Quinghai and KTB/White Feather). Working means, arrow flight is straight, and I hit the target (nearly). Coincidentally I use short fletchings (2.5" feathers), so I can see technique and release errors more easily  smile 

Thus, when looking for a new bow (even a temporary training bow), look for the grip shape as well, besides draw weight and draw length ...  roll

Thumbs up

14 (edited by Pedro C 2017-09-15 19:32:53)

Re: White Feather bows...

I ordered a Segye Korean bow from alibow. The grip was too small to shoot comfortably with a Korean style low wrist, so I padded it with paper and glue, and wrapped it with leather. now it's all egg shaped, somewhat deep and fits the hand nicely. The string bridge fell off and I put the tip on the ground to unstring it and it broke off, i'll have to reglue them, but the grip is still doing fine. But still, hard foam could  be better

Re: White Feather bows...

Thank you for volunteering as beta-tester ...  smile  smile
I've seen the Segye bow on the Alibow Site, and considering it once my thumb draw technique is stable.
The falling-off string bridge is an annoyance, but I remember similar stories about Kaya bows ...

And how about the performance ?
How does it compare to Freddies bows, which are same price range ?

And the grip ... well, I have the same problem with my Quinghai / Kaiyuan bows.
It is a bit small for my taste, and almost round.
But for the Segye - there is one image with an un-wrapped PU foam handle, resembling the normal Korean style.
It is probably too late for your bow, now, but the Alibow people had been very responsive to questions by e-mail, and custom requests "in scope", so to say.
I'm sure it's no problem to order a Segye bow with such a handle, and unwrapped.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

Small update to my WF bow.
I had been participating in a 3D tournament last week with said White Feathers bow.
Quite an interesting experience, and I met a few other thumb archers.
Some relevant stuff:

1.
A very small number of participants in the horsebow class (about 10 at all), just me with a Korean style bow.
The others, being mostly from the same club, had Robert Vegh Scythian bows.
I was lucky to team up with one of those "Scythians", who had a 50# bow with bamboo arrows.
He is practicing thumb draw for some years.

2.
After a lame start (have been a bit nervous, and was my first 3D tournament), I could keep up quite well, being on par with my Scythian group member.
That doesn't say too much about the bow, though.

3.
The other group members (being already in their sixties) had trouble pulling the wood/bamboo arrows shot by both horsebows.
(Wood/bamboo arrows were mandatory for the horsebow class.)
I found that penetration with my 30# bow and his 50# Scythian were approximately the same, significantly more than the Carbon arrows of the BHR (Bow Hunter Recurve) group members.

4.
Another group member shot a TD recurve of a renown European bowyer, costing about 4..5 times as much as my bow.
The bow had 28#, he had Carbon arrows of approx. 300..350 grain.
Watching him shooting, the arrows arced visibly at 25 yard and beyond, much more than my bow with heavier arrows.

My conclusions from the tournament, and from similar observations at my club - White Feather bows are about on par with Kaya and Nomad KTBs, and matching the efficiency of mid or high range recurve bows.

Concerning durability, I can't say much yet, having the bow less than a year.
Going to report back here anything interesting.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

FYI, there is a review of Alibow's Korean style Segye bow, on the Malta Archery YT channel:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3_gRgjKg9Y

The assessment is quite positive, but he shoots only on 10m (indoors), and not really Korean style.
Helpful anyway, but I'm content with my collection of White Feather bows ...

The comment section is also interesting.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

Because of a 30 per cent discount in my favourite shop, I bought a 35# Nomad KTB recently.
Technical details are similar to a Carbon Forever bow from White Feathers, so a direct comparision seems in order.
Only the Nomad is 48", the Carbon Forever 53" (henceforth called CF). I choose the 53" variant of the latter, which is also available in 48".

Both are from Freddie Archery, and look very similar. Limbs are covered with an identical fabric. The CF has a smaller grip, wrapped with what looks like thin leather. The Nomad grip is bigger, and covered with a straw-colored pimpled rubber. It looks ugly, but feels more comfortable, and gives me better control then the CF grip.
The rest is again quite similar. The Nomad looks a bit more elaborate, yet mostly plastic details.
Performance-wise, there is not much difference. I got the impression the CF has slightly more punch, doing better with the heavy wood arrows I use. I didn't shoot them back-to-back, though.
If I find the time, I do a speed and distance measurment over the turn of the year.

In conclusion, very similar bows with very similar characteristics. The Nomad used to be about 20 per cent more expensive here. It seems you only pay that 20% for looks, not performance.

Thumbs up

Re: White Feather bows...

Did a short side-by-side comparison of both bows this weekend ("Nomad" and "Forever Carbon").
The Nomad is much easier to draw, only noticeable building up at the last few inches. The White Feathers bow is harder to draw from the beginning.
And as said, both have a nominally identical draw weight.
I didn't see difference in arrow flight, though (400gn cedar wood, 32"). Shooting three arrows with each bow on our 60 yard target, I got three hits for the Nomad and two for the White Feathers.
Shooting instinctively, this is not really hard evidence.
But I definitely like the Nomad more, and I'm better with it.

Thumbs up