YT bow reviews ... (Page 1 of 3)

Well the first one is not a horn bow.  It looks to be the same as the YMG and the Hwarang.  If I'm not mistaken.

I see.  It seems around the right price range.  I'm curious if the horn makes a difference compared to the Hwarang?

If you go to page 2 of this subforum series you'll see various reviews for the Taegeuk.  One thread talks about a delamination problem while another about its performance:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=704

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=657

From my experience, I owned YMGs, HMG and an SMG and my feeling is the SMG was really the most boom for buck.  And all I had was the regular carbon laminate.  Koreanbows.com sells those with snake skin finish for less than the Taegeuk.  Matter of fact I was told to purchase a regular SMG carbon laminate by someone at ATARN years ago over the SMG's horn carbon laminate because the guy felt that the addition of horn was more or less superfluous when added to something with a synthetic core.

Some though I believe claim superior results with the horn laminate-carbons but in the second thread I mention, the 'regular' SMG essentially beats the Taegeuk going by chronograph results.  I still today regret selling my old SMG and that's definitely the bow that got away.  Can't say much about the horn-carbon core mesh ups as I've never had one but the second thread I reference may be illuminating.

I have several "regular" carbon laminate bows, and actually quite happy with them (Windfighter, KTB and White Feather) ... thus searching for a reason to justify 500 bucks for this bow. I think it's off the table for me at the moment.

AFAIK, that's called "advertisement". Not necessary his fault, I could imagine a manufacturers motive to deliver him cherry-picked bows, sometimes for free.
I own one of the bows he judged as "good value for the money", which actually has a pretty mediocre design, quality, and performance. If I had seen and tested it before, I would not have bought it. But it will look pretty cool on the wall ...

Exactly. Or "caveat emptor", as it's called in Latin.

What can I say...we're a small quiet forum but apparently very influential.

Well its nice that some clarification is given as to what 'never had a problem' meant.  Apparently, it meant how easy return or warranty issues were handled with poor manufacturers but also the good ones.  Regardless, I hate to bring up, yet feel I have to and besides you know I'm going to anyway, that Alibow a while back had some serious delamination problems.  The bows were actually showing up to vendors and customers with fissures already in them.  Now how could you miss that? 

Alibow's policy too for situations like that were not necessarily to refund the bow right away but rather extend the warranty to a year and a half and if the bow broke during that time then a refund could be given.  Usually in the form of another bow. 

I'm not going to accuse or point the finger at anyone here but sometimes even 'easy' companies to deal with are not necessarily all that easy and the situation can be complex.  I don't know how Alibow issues were handled with all participating vendors but standing by companies with deep systematic errors is probably not the best policy in the world.  And Alibow's problems don't end at just fissures already in bows when appearing at the door.  Which in and of itself alone is pretty bad.  One vendor I talk to dropped them pretty hard recently due to all the issues.

I don't want to get too much further into this, as I fear I already have, or make anyone here out as the bad guy but people do watch these videos which might I add are done pretty well.  The impression is usually that everything is fine and you'll have a perfectly delightful situation.  All the time.

However, I'll close on a positive by saying I applaud this level of transparency reached by the particular vendor and hope more really nice videos are made about bows.

Just a heads up, here is the review for the Hun bow by Jackal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poTN3L6c8qc

I have been waiting for a bow like this for a while to come out but decided not to approach the company or anyone else about this yet even after this review.  And sure enough, another vendor who is more conservative on recommendations found that the lower asymmetrical limb would break on 2 of the 4 bows ordered from Jackal unless the lower was reinforced.  Which was why the other two ordered did not break.  So there is a systematic error in the bow design and needs to be reworked and the bow was not recommended to me.  However, and again, we see with this particular review channel that its a really cool bow, blazing fast, may have to take care of it etc etc. 

I also notice the bow looks a little short drawn too in the video.  Apparently it has a 31 (?) inch max draw.  Its even proclaimed that beyond 31 inches you don't want to draw any further and it seems the draw may be to 31 inches but it looks a tad short to me still.  I bring this up because if it is being short drawn a little that probably is why it didn't fail on him during the making of the video.

There are two things going on here though:

One is a premature release of some bows based on less than sufficient design (the Hun bow in this instance) or ok design but shoddy manufacturing/production (Alibow).  So some of these things could be addressed at the designer/manufacturer level but are being sent up for public dissemination/advertising/whatever you want to call it regardless.

The other, is of course knowing of these issues yet trying to sell the bow regardless as a vendor.  Which appears to be going on with this YT channel.

Armin comes off extremely likeable and charming in these videos.  Charm I've come to realize is perhaps one of the most powerful tools you could have in this world and can get you out of less than desirable situations very easily.  While I don't claim to be a prophet or let alone a crusader out against anyone, I do think its fair game to provide a cautionary tale or two as someone who has dealt with less than desirable manufacturers and knows what its like to come out on the shorter end for let's say less than scrupulous practices.  That being said there are products that Armin does promote that are fine.  But again, there are other vendors I know of out there who would not for some of those 'other' manufacturers.

And so some vendors have different transparency levels than others.  And yes bows break, but if its systematic and that's happening yet still being pushed out to the market then I can't really sit back and say that's right.  But I know people have different ethics and tolerances to those variations in ethics.  Me quite frankly, if I had bows that were failing left and right and breaking I would not even try to push it out to the public.  I'd keep designing and testing enough until reach an appropriate statiscial level of success and then release.  Likewise, if I were a vendor I would not sell anything to anyone that didn't function appropriately.  But hey that's me.  Different strokes for different folks I guess. 

Again though I'm not 'out' for anyone here.  Hate anyone to think that.  I'm just giving my advice from the consumer perspective.

I actually did talk to Armin once before regarding this.  And while I don't have a problem with him on a personal level, standing by some of these company's the way he does is a bit perplexing as he did in the conversation.  But it seems some manufacturers per his agreements with them are better than others at replacing however some will watch the videos and go to the manufacturer directly and just purchase.  What we get may not stand up to our standards as to how the product is delivered or manufactured.  And as I said before, Armin's videos can be very influential.  They're well done overall, he's charming-likeable, but is the whole story really there?

What I speak of is based on my dealings with the manufacturer but also what was shown to me by another vendor who had a problem very similar to mine.  And of course being influenced by one of Armin's videos.  Some of what the other vendor received from the manufacturer was so poor that I just don't know how he could have gotten anyone to buy the bows.  And I can't help to wonder how many others influenced by a YT video bow review ended up treading down the same path.  Maybe they were lucky and got some better?  Did the manufacturer improve any in the meantime?  There were also a lot of criticisms about this manufacturer too over at ATARN FB page.

That being said I am curious myself about the 'problem' rate that a certain manufacturer has.  I am most curious about this manufacturer's packaging, bow failure rate, but also after unboxing seeing if there are any fissures still in the glass layers of their bows.  So if I were conducting a poll, I'd include all those factors too in addition to whether or not the bow actually broke as some of what I mention are factors that could easily lead to breakage yet lead a purchaser to just push for a refund at the start.  Also important would be to mark the time period of purchase to see if there is an improving process vs. steady decline.

Again though, some of what I heard actually had a rate of failure attached to it.  Also, I'm glad to talk about these issues to anyone and if there is a good way to measure these things.

For what its worth, I think most of your Korean makers are fairly reliable.  Though not necessarily every make or model.  I think your YMG, SMG, and HMGs are all pretty good in this matter.  Although bow breaking happens with them, the amount sold and the times you hear of it I doubt produce a significant failure rate.  The Korean bow making tradition after all is essentially unbroken and of great cultural pride still.

Yeah.  I'll say though that in my critique of his recent video,  it sounds more like after talking to my conservative vendor that the Hun bow does not fail in the video likely because Armin's was from a better batch.  Although both vendors note some wobble at the ears and there's still the matter that apparently some batches can have a high failure rate.  Hopefully the feedback given to the manufacturer will be taken into consideration and the bow design and manufacturing improved.

Really the only other truly unbroken Asiatic archery traditions the way I see it are Japanese and Bhutanese.  There's a continuous 'curriculum' and manufacture of bows with them both that continues from older times with authenticity.  And still within the culture.  I'm pretty sure there was a break in Turkish archery.  Usually it was considered with the death of Turkish bower Neçmeddin Okyay in the 1930s.  This of course follows the logic that if the bows are not being produced anymore then likely neither is the archery.  Also, I'm not too sure if Ataturk would have encouraged the tradition or not.  He seemed more into progressing Turkey at the time although the Turk's zeal in resurrecting their traditional archery makes it seem like it never went away. 

I know the Mongols have their tradition of archery quite modified actually.  They're really not using the right bows or shooting as their ancestors did although per a discussion over at the old ATARN forum, they say they are.  But its not the 'ancestors' we think they're alluding too.  Funny story there actually.

I think alot of the failure though is due to what you were alluding to earlier: certain manufacturers not enacting enough quality control because they want to rush their product out and make money.  Alibow comes to mind here.  And of course some designs plus material sourcing plus manufacturing were just bad.  Even some Korean bows apparently weren't immune to that.  Just check out some of the older pages here.

From reading the Karpowicz book, the feeling I get is Ottoman-Turkish Archery today is the result more of a revival.  The book mentions a 'final generation' of bowyer(s) and then claims production ceases in the 1930s with the man I mentioned above.  Although Necmeddin Okyay lives until 1976.  Was he teaching others bow making back then or up to then?  You can google his name and find more about him although he seems more remembered for his calligraphy work on those sites.  Also a traditional Turkish archer from 1939 named Ibrahim Bozok is photographed adjusting a bow in the book as well.  I can't find much else about him at all and if he had a teaching school that passed on these traditions and what not. 

Considering that most of the major manufacturing centers from Ottoman times were in Istanbul, I'm not so sure how likely it is that the bows would have gradually made it to families in the country side.  Although, I've seen over at the old ATARN forum a guy from a rural area of Iran showing drawing techniques which he claimed his grandfather taught him.  They looked like techniques from Sassanian times.  Although for me even this raises questions: was it due to unbroken tradition from Sassanian times vs. something his grandpa researched in his time and then passed down?  He did not suggest to have a traditional horn composite bow though or been taught with one by his grandpa.  I don't know if Ottoman-Turkish archery techniques practiced by the man I mentioned above were taught and learned by anyone much like Kyudo teaching and its fervently maintained curriculum.  Let alone Gungdo's.

Also brings to question the survival of actual composite bows from old times.  I'm more inclined to believe that few if any in the last century survived among families and were eventually passed down the next generation to use unless you could make the argument that the country had a rock solid traditionalist back-bone and an elite willing to preserve it.  Korea fits the bill here better but not necessarily Turkey.  I suspect the the Ottoman horn composite bow was perhaps more strictly viewed as a military object then anything else and coupled with the expertise needed to care, I picture them really being kept in armories when and where they could be kept that way as the preferred storage method and really only given to soldiers.  Kind've a special military issue thing.  With the exception among maybe the Ottoman-Turkish elite that practiced flight archery in old times.  But once a soldier deployed in those times, they likely slept with it to keep it supple.  Or had to establish a heating system at camp in order to make corrections and what not.

Related, alot of times the present day Koreans themselves will keep their horn composite bows at their dojos because they facilitate things necessary for the bow's care more easily then at the home such as a hot box where they are perpetually kept.  However there are some Koreans who do have a hot box setup at their homes.

We should also remember that the practice of Gungdo in Korea during the late 1800s and early 1900s was really among the elite who could afford the horn composite bows as instruments of leisure.  I think in China right before the Communist era it was the same and in England as well during the Victorian era with longbows.  From what I can tell, Turkey did not really have the same thing happen with their traditional archery after progression from Ottoman times even among the elite.  The Karpowicz book could perhaps fill in more gaps here (and maybe something else).  I highly recommend it.

Whoa.  That got long and off topic.