26 (edited by geoarcher 2018-07-19 14:35:30)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

ragnar wrote:

Interesting anyway - thanks for the loooong explanation.
As said, I don't know much details about Turkey's last century. Except that the leadership orientated westwards after the WWI defeat, and dropped many traditions. Like China and Japan at that time, yet not as violent as China again half a century later.
I followed some threads on other fora, mentioning several arab/ottoman archery books, supposedly describing equipment and style in great detail. Thus, a revival is not problematic - if it's authentic is another question. In many cases, such revivals are spurred by by a kind of chauvinistic nationalism. No direct link to Turkey or other countries here ...
And thinking, I agree to the other fact you mentioned - in Turkey, Korea and China, archery was mainly an elitary preoccupation. Bowyers needed a proper compensation for months of work. The same applies for armour and damascene blades, for instance. And not to mention horses.
To extend you argument, I think the cavalry of medieval and antique kingdoms were exclusively an upper-class business. Nomadic people were probably an exception here.


Yeah I think with Turkey, most got caught up in the guidance of Ataturk to westernize and transform the modern Turkish Nation State away from those more 'backward' traditionalist things of the Ottoman Empire to what it became throughout most of the 20th century.  I don't know if Ataturk had an opinion regarding Ottoman-Turkish archery and if he did anything to encourage or discourage its practice but it seemed to get swept away.  I also don't know if this had to do with a lack of a strong elite or just the immediacy of the situation but regardless the revival we see seems more recent.  Actually its interesting to note here that the revival seems to coincide with more recent political trends in Turkey that appear to aim at bringing Islamist politics back into the mix.  Not sure if this is coincidence or not but sometimes the thoughts of the times whether political or other can influence certain actions among a group of people.  Right now in Turkey, political analysts have noted somewhat of a break away from Ataturk's legacy among politicians.  A return to Islamist ideas in Turkey would coincide with a type of traditionalist expression as well.  And of course the bow has a special place in Islamic warfare.

Or of course it could just be that more people have more money now in a country that did much to 'modernize' in order to stay relevant in a global economy and people in said country just want to do something leisurely that harkens back to their county's history.

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27 (edited by geoarcher 2018-07-19 14:51:27)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

Actually I did a little poking around just now on the net and found this site:

http://www.turkishculture.org/military/ … ry-748.htm

Apparently Ataturk encouraged a revival of Turkish archery and even a club to be established.  Interestingly enough, after Ataturk's death, the club folds around 1939.  Go figure.  Here is what he site had to say about revival in modern times:

In the recent years our traditional archery started to breath again. The re-birth of the Turkish traditional archery has started with the personal attempts of a few men.  Thanks to the old treatises and limited number of enthusiasts around the world, the ancient technique and tackle have been recovered within a short time. Nowadays the number of enthusiasts and practitioners increase rapidly.  It won’t be a surprise to see Turkish archers in the near future with their composite bows and thumb rings, competing in traditional archery events.

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28 (edited by morton509 2018-07-19 16:33:39)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

Thanks for the link Geo.  I really hope there is someone in Turkey somewhere still making these bows.  I would love to get my hands on one of these little powerhouses.

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29 (edited by geoarcher 2018-07-19 17:27:26)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

No problem Morton.  I know there are some guys still making these bows in Turkey but they kinda do it among themselves.  No international sales I'm afraid.  Not sure either if there is a shop anywhere in the country that operates accordingly like what you'd expect to find in Korea or Japan.  Kinda have my doubts but who knows.  I think at the moment you might be better off just trying to contact this guy:

http://www.nawalny-bows.com/

He's done a fair share of Turkish bows as well as Crim. Tatar and he's reasonably priced.  Although I've never shot any of his bows but he's pretty nice to chat to and will answer your questions.

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30 (edited by ragnar 2018-07-20 07:04:21)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

Interesting link (to Nawalny bows), thank you. Think I heard this name already, and prices for real horn/sinew bows seem fair.
I had noticed that Eastern Europe (Slavian countries) have a fair share of Turkish style archery. Including Poland, and even Russia.
BTW I have seen a (pseudo ?) historian Russian movie recently, dealing with the Bathu Khan invasion. A Russian archer used a relatively short recurved bow (Scythian/Awar ?), and had an interesting way to hold arrows in his bow hand. He held them horizontally, clamped between the fingers.
Not sure if this is historically correct, but as a matter of fact, the Russian Empire had very good relations to the Ottomans for centuries. Russian museums display pieces of armour, ornated with islamic texts in kyrillic (Russian) letters.

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31 (edited by geoarcher 2018-07-21 01:06:12)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

No worries.

Slavic traditions of archery seem largely borrowed from Turkic based on what I recall from my studies of East European history.  Funny thing that's actually what got me into all this was studying Russian (language) and along the way learning of how the then emerging Rus state based most of its need for expansion in order to subdue the threat of the Turkic people that dominated the steppe lands at that time.  This was the first image I ever saw of a horse archer depicted going back to those days of study:

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi … Msa19Qd_M:

Still conjures up a rush in me till this very day.

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To stay with this topic, I watched the movie "Rise of the Scythian" (Russian: "скиф") recently. It features some archery scenes, and even e few with revealing close-ups. Which left me confused, actually. There was no consistent style. Arrows on both sides of the bow, and one close-up even revealed an Avatar-style draw (mediterranean reversed, i.e. palm outward).
Seems Russian movie directors place as much value on historical accuracy as the Hollywood counterparts ...

As a side note, the Russian term "скиф" seems coincidentially  quite similar to the Kantonese "shifu". Well, like Scythia vs. Scotia, Albion vs. Albania, and Rome vs. Romania ...

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Most important thing to know about Scythian technique: no evidence of thumbring usage exists among them.  The more conservative view among researchers has been a two fingered release and maybe something else.

Regarding names, Oswald Szemerényi's paper seems still more or less the best for understanding what the Scythians likely referred to themselves as:

1980 Four Old Iranian Ethnic Names: Scythian - Skudra - Sogdian - Saka

He feels they would have called themselves 'Skuda' which would have equated roughly to something like 'archer' in their language or as I like to think of it 'people of the bow'.

A lot of genetic studies have been done on Scythian remains recently.  From an autosomal standpoint, they mostly have a genetic signature derived form Yamna or Andronovo culture with added east Eurasian DNA.  Genetic studies show quite a few distinctly east Asian maternal lines among the women buried with Scythian males suggesting they took east Eurasian women as brides.  There are a few outliers though among the Scythian remains sampled that show a more west Eurasian (European) shift to their DNA.  Naturally, these are typically found in more westward areas of the Eurasian landmass, but in the main they were very Eurasiatic genetically speaking.

Present day populations that are genetically close to them based on f-statistics are Crimean Tatars but more so Pamiri people of Tajikistan.  Both results make sense considering the histories of both peoples.

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Re: YT bow reviews ...

Most important thing to know about Scythian technique: no evidence of thumbring usage exists among them.

They could have used leather, which works fine for me. Or do it "Armin Hirmer style" - with bare thumb. I used to shoot my weak (25")  Alibow Qinghai mostly without protection.
But that is speculation.  I believe the construction parameters of bow artifacts could give an indication of  the used style.

And bridging back to said bow reviews - I am recently having a problem with a bow favourably reviewed by Armin. The bow is Awar style, and well made. However, it doesn't stand heat very well. Above 20°C, it seems to lose torsional stiffness, and the string jumps off the tiny string brigdes while shooting. Shooting a bow for a few minutes in a well tempered room at 10 yard is not really a hard criterion.
Well, it will become my winter bow then ...

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35 (edited by geoarcher 2018-07-26 14:26:01)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

ragnar wrote:

They could have used leather, which works fine for me.

The guys over at ATARN have done alot of research  apparently in this matter and they pretty much say the hypothesis that Scythians used a thumbring or draw should be put to rest.  Ancient depictions by Greeks whether metal representations or statues suggest a fingered release or pinch draw.  Nothing really out there suggests the classic thumb draw technique associated with the Mongols and what not.  Although I would refer you to the ATARN guys for more details and info here.

ragnar wrote:

And bridging back to said bow reviews - I am recently having a problem with a bow favorably reviewed by Armin.

Yeah.  I received more info BTW on Armin and his Hun bow and now the bow reviewed in the video is apparently so twisted due to the instability of the design that its unusable.  My conservative vendor basically said forgot about that model, too much instability and fragility.  Again we must ask: is the whole story really there in these videos?

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Re: YT bow reviews ...

Again we must ask: is the whole story really there in these videos?

To put my words cautiously - the YT channel is a very good marketing platform for the "attached" bowmakers. The products are not tested in a too tough manner...
I'm into compound shooting as well, and I noticed the same in this niche. Only with much more money involved. I quickly learned to discern sales-pitches-by-proxy from real reviews.
At the end of the day, it depends on the "due diligence" of the potential customer.

The guys over at ATARN have done alot of research  apparently in this matter and they pretty much say the hypothesis that Scythians used a thumbring or draw should be put to rest.

I approached this issue from a mainly "energetical" view. Being famous as good archers, their arrows supposedly had a proper "punch", even against armour equivalent to medieval periods. This implies draw weights comparable to the Manchus and English, assuming similar stature and performance.
Deducing the approximate draw curve from preserved bow fragments (as done with other bows), it should be possible to conclude if it was used with a mediterranean style (26..28") of thumb draw (30"..34"), ignoring the short ottoman draw here for a moment.
Kinetic energy is proportional to draw length (actually, draw length minus brace height), which enabled me to shoot 400gn arrows with competitive performance on a "weak" 25" bow. And draw length beyond the chin would IMHO suppose thumb draw, at least in mounted archery.
The English used a 30..31" finger draw in war, but only for unprecise "arrow hails" and clout shooting.
Just my 2 cents...

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37 (edited by geoarcher 2018-07-27 02:12:01)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

ragnar wrote:

Just my 2 cents...

Honestly, there is so much hearsay and conjecture regarding not only the Scythians but also mounted archer's draw weights that its usually best to consult those deeply engrossed in this research.  Major Scythian battles were of course the Battle of Jaxartes (against Alexander the Great) and the one against Alexander's father Phillip.  Just to name a few.  You may want to poke around and see what archaeology, if any, produced results to support your hypothesis from those battle fields.  Scythian graves have allegedly yielded evidence of some draw devices but nothing like a thumbring per detailed discussions over at ATARN which was on the FB page and I'm not going to bother to look up at the moment.  But like I mentioned earlier before, some challenge the estimations of historical draw weight regardless.  Perhaps you've seen this but here's Adam Karpowicz's estimation of range for a Scythian bow and its historical draw weight based on his reconstruction of one found from Xinjang:

The replica strung and drawn in sequence.  It must be emphasized, the draw weight must be taken here as only an indicationof the possible range for these bows. Very small variations in dimensions will result in substantial changes in weight. For example, a bow only 0.1cm thinner will be 15lb lighter, 0.2cm thinner about 30lb lighter. Narrowing the bow by
0.1cm will bring about 7lb drop in weight, by 0.2cm 15lb decrease. This could be indeed the case, if the sinew layer was thicker than the estimated 0.1cm. A 2cm longer bow will be about 5lb lighter as well. Moreover, the crosssectional and
side profile of the bows could vary between different specimens, as well as the flexibility of the outer sections of bows, which came to be nearly rigid in the replica. These, together with the physical degradation in use and with the
changes of ambient humidity and temperature, do not allow for predictions greater than ± 30lb. It would be reasonable to estimate the draw weight range of Scythian bows to be from 80lb to 140lb, which falls close to a similar estimate for other composites.

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/Sc … _ATARN.pdf

Pretty heavy bows to draw based on what seems some very reasonable archaeology + reverse engineering.  Though not always did mounted archers prefer to use thumb draw.  Apparently, Huns, Mongols, and even Turks would use fingered releases to varying degrees.  Going back the other way, Karpowicz in his book on Ottoman Turkish archery does mention that a thumbdraw with use of hard material (horn, metal etc.) will produce the sharpest release.  But did everyone have access to such a draw device?  Let alone time or resources to develop one made of either horn or metal?  Also, how long were Scythian bows typically? 

There are tons of discussions about all this over at ATARN and totally worth it to check it out:

http://www.atarn.org/

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Re: YT bow reviews ...

Not really surprised about the probable Scythian draw weights. They wanted similar effects on animals and armour, so required similar draw weights.

Though not always did mounted archers prefer to use thumb draw.  Apparently, Huns, Mongols, and even Turks would use fingered releases to varying degrees.

This could well be. Besides the Kassai style, there are other finger draw styles suitable for horseback archery. Unfortunately it seems, archeologists are not very interested in such details.

There are tons of discussions about all this over at ATARN and totally worth it to check it out:
http://www.atarn.org/

I had been aware of the ATARN site, but not yet read all pages.
I think I continue after my holidays, which are planned to proceed (almost) without computer / electronic devices. Being a "professional keyboard warrior", I need a rest sometimes ...

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Re: YT bow reviews ...

Have to say I think there is some improvement here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZdTumco51Q

I also think he was thorough too in his assessment of Batur nocks highlighting some of the problems you could have but also seeing if they really helped with fast nocking + shooting compared to regular plastic nocks.  The answer: they really don't.

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Yes, I think it's becoming better.
However, I still miss a test on distances greater than 10 meters, and a kind of long-term test.
The first one would be easy, as he has videos from his outdoor range. And good mediterranean archers do blank shaft test at least at 10m and 20m, because it usually takes 20 to 30m for the arrow oscillations to settle.

But perhaps I'm too harsh, because testing is an important part of my day job. And a good tester tries to "break" the product without exceeding it's limits.

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Now this is quite enthusiastic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGzF8OF_xe0 IMHO overly so.
Banging and hand-shock is not a good sign. This means energy is remaining in the bow, and not passed on to the arrow.
Giving a minimal gpp recommendation (like cinnabar) would be wise for the manufacturer, I think.

And I would be interested in the long-term durability of mentioned foam inlays.
This technology is quite common for the mid- and upper price range of olympic bows. But as I know, foam limbs use to hold up about one year of normal intensity training of an active (professional) archer. Then, they need replacement.

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42 (edited by geoarcher 2018-08-29 02:08:16)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

1 step forward 2 steps back?  Actually, if that were a true Alibow unboxing, it would feature a bent box with a very unhappy customer taking the bow out and realizing that the next step would entail straightening out the ridiculous twist-bend in one's newly purchased bow.  And the eventual realization of fissure(s) running vertical along with the fiber glass layer.  Fun times.

His relationship with Alibow seems very different compared to other bowyers.  He even notes that he was invited to shoot with the owner's niece in China towards the end of this video and it looks like in another fairly recent video he was gifted the commemorative Alibow tea.  At the end of that video, he proclaims the tea 'amazing' just like all the rest of Alibow's products.  Given my experience plus many others with Alibow, I'd be very hesitant to drink that tea.

Can't say much about the foam layer though.  Never had experience with that type of material.  Even though I have had my eye on this model since it is an asymmetric and have been wanting something Hun/Sassanid like for a while, given my experience with this company as well as other's testimonials, I will have to politely decline and let perhaps a more adventurous consumer purchase and test the model out for longevity and all that.

As my one conservative vendor says: Let someone else be the beta tester. wink

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He even notes that he was invited to shoot with the owner's niece in China towards the end ...

I remember that, but listened "with a half ear", as we use to say here. Not sure if he spoke about the past or the future.
Anyway, I had been thinking about such a bow (or similar long draw) as well, but deferred it indefinitely. Also because of the comments here. I have a local alternative (Vegh distributor), were I have the option of try-before-buy. Even if it's a bit more expensive.
My lightweight glassfiber bows from Alibow still hold up quite well, though.

As said, the foam limbs are quite common in the olympic world, especially ILF limbs. Some fellow archers in my club shooting them - on metal risers.
That's another thing that looks interesting, but some while ago I realized I had spread myself too thin, trying too much bows and arrows. Which is not very helpful for form and precision, I think.

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44 (edited by geoarcher 2018-08-29 11:04:00)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

ragnar wrote:

Not sure if he spoke about the past or the future.

Future.  But of course point being, you'd think in some regards you'd leave info like that out of a video review as presenting a chummy-chum relationship with a manufacturer in the beginning like that can do much to discredit the assessment.  Presents a conflict of interest.

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Re: YT bow reviews ...

I understood it correct, then.
But mentioned conflict of interests seems to loom there in the background, for sure. I won't indulge in assumptions.

As a side note, I tried Compound shooting recently. I've checked many YT bow reviews, and >95% of them are more or less blatant sales pushes. With prices in the 400 ... 1.500 USD range and dealer/distributor networks, the temptation seems much bigger.

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46 (edited by CTR 2018-08-30 18:14:53)

Re: YT bow reviews ...

ragnar wrote:

I understood it correct, then.
But mentioned conflict of interests seems to loom there in the background, for sure. I won't indulge in assumptions.

As a side note, I tried Compound shooting recently. I've checked many YT bow reviews, and >95% of them are more or less blatant sales pushes. With prices in the 400 ... 1.500 USD range and dealer/distributor networks, the temptation seems much bigger.

Bigger companies have more money with which to "buy" reviews. A lot of reviewers can also get away with this somehow. TwangNBang is not specific to compound bows, but is one such example of this type of channel. He actually had the nerve to come out and say that he does not give negative reviews in a video. I went looking and it appears in the years since he has deleted the video, but I was someone who followed his channel from its early days until I realized he only offered utterly shill reviews. For him though it worked, and appears to continue to work, very well as a means to grow because manufacturers feel very comfortable sending products if they know it'll have a good outcome.

I bring this up as an example because I think you put  your finger on why I don't see Armin as one of said shill reviewers. He is polite and nice and friendly, certainly, but he genuinely doesn't seem to be shilling or selling for a company. When bows break, he does share and show it, albeit usually that is posted on one of his other social media fronts. And he runs a range, which shouldn't be discounted, as his bows probably actually get a pretty darn good arrow count. You see these bows he reviews out on the range posted in pictures pretty much daily.

I think there might be a compounding factor here working in his favor, which is that he shoots very low poundage bows. The lower the poundage, the less likely the bow is to break generally speaking.

Think about that from an engineering perspective. Shoot a 30 pound and a 60 pound bow at the same GPP and the same efficiency (lets say 70%) That means in both cases the bow has to reabsorb 30% of the total energy, but that'd be half as much total energy for the 30# bow.... and the glass/carbon laminations are identical as are the glue lines, they just use thinner wood cores to achieve the lower poundages.

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Has Armin posted an update yet concerning the severe twist in his Jackal Hun bow or shown us a typical Alibow unboxing with some of the 'extra' surprises brought up here?  If not, maybe he's just being nice? *shrug*

Just sayin'.

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Re: YT bow reviews ...

Just to be explicit, I do not think there is money flowing for this reviews in the background.

Trying to think in the shoes of both sides:
As a bowyer, I would double or triple-check a bow before sending him to a independant reviewer. A (more or less) open platform like YT reaches hundreds or thousands of potential customers, so mistakes quickly damage your reputation.
And as a reviewer, you are tempted to be nice, or else the bowyer might drop you for his next bows. So don't dig too deep, and don't be too meticulous.

More than a decade ago, I had subscibed to a computer magazine that did quite comprehensive reviews. They bought the stuff anonymous, and called things as they are. As one might guess, they were not really loved accross that industry. But all watered down through the years, and they are doing the ubiquitous "Word and Excel tricks" now.

I brought compounds up, as an obvious and extreme example. Many distributors/shops who do YT reviews have written contracts with manufacturers. And as I heard, some (compound bow) manufacturers even forbid dealers to put certain other brands in their shop. A healthy competition, it seems ...

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Recently found out the person running the YT channel discussed her mostly doesn't like criticism too much.
On occasion of a "zombie" video filmed on the outdoor range, I commented that my bow would easily reach the neighbouring residences behind the targets. Censorship was swift ...

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Re: YT bow reviews ...

ragnar wrote:

Recently found out the person running the YT channel discussed her mostly doesn't like criticism too much.
On occasion of a "zombie" video filmed on the outdoor range, I commented that my bow would easily reach the neighbouring residences behind the targets. Censorship was swift ...


Did you post using your screen name here?

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