Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Back then most of us started with Toth or Kassai and they were horribly designed and overpriced for what they were.  Plus, we  often times would buy too heavy because those typically were the base entries thinking we would grow into the bow but rather we'd usually end up selling it at a loss without gaining good form and or thumb technique.

Et tu ? yikes
It was a 60# Kassai Bear for me.

I'm not surprised the bow does the job. I have tested my kid's Rolan Snake Junior extensively, only without chrono. Designed as kids bow for 24", I drew it to about 30" without problems. It casts 1500 Tyro Avalon arrows (240gn) to about 150m. (Shooting for distance is my chrono-substitute).

Biggest problem is still with arrows, as the Easton Axis 700s tend to fish tale too easily as they do with every bow I shoot them with.  Think it has something to do with the fletching....

I had a similar issue with wood arrows.
Reducing the height of the fletching (with scissors) helped in my case. The arrows look now like the "streamlined fletching" manchus you get e.g. from Alibow.

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

They were miserable creations.  Felt like Nerf meets Asiatic archery.  That first generation of Hungarian bowyers were particular guilty here in this matter.

As for the fletching its that 2" type, essentially this:

https://goo.gl/images/CELZW5

Never had such extreme fishtailing before but will cutting this type of fletching do the trick?  Was yours like that as well?

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78

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Thank you very much for this review, Geo.
It will be the perfect bow to teach my son asiatic archery.
You cannot be wrong with it.
wink

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Never had such extreme fishtailing before but will cutting this type of fletching do the trick?  Was yours like that as well?

Mine were "standard" wooden shafts 50/55#, 32", 100gn tip, with triple 4" shield fletchings. They fishtailed terribly at slight release errors, which are still not so rare for me ...
So I clipped off everything above 8 millimeters (about 1/3") over the whole length, which improved the flight characteristics.
The fishtailing is quite rare since. But I am trying to build up "muscles" i.e. shooting higher draw weights than normal, thus my release gets worse after longer sessions.

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80 (edited by geoarcher 2018-06-11 14:18:06)

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Tom wrote:

Thank you very much for this review, Geo.
It will be the perfect bow to teach my son asiatic archery.
You cannot be wrong with it.
wink


Welcome!

Edit:  Make sure you watch this video when you first get it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wdSh2m3Tjk

After assembly, as the video tells, you'll have to tame the limbs a bit.  No big deal really as the material is very malleable so you don't need to add heat or anything like that.

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

ragnar wrote:

Mine were "standard" wooden shafts 50/55#, 32", 100gn tip, with triple 4" shield fletchings. They fishtailed terribly at slight release errors, which are still not so rare for me ...
So I clipped off everything above 8 millimeters (about 1/3") over the whole length, which improved the flight characteristics.
The fishtailing is quite rare since. But I am trying to build up "muscles" i.e. shooting higher draw weights than normal, thus my release gets worse after longer sessions.

I see.  Yeah my arrows don't fishtail really anymore unless I use the Easton Axis 700s.  They are incredibly thin arrows as one could tell by their total weight in grains.  Thought with a bow like the Elong they would work fine but apparently not.

Heavier arrows with my Elong don't do that either.  Not sure how to stabilize more the flight dynamics of these Eastons other then trimming down the fetching as you suggest but not entirely sure if that will do the trick.

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82

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

geoarcher wrote:
Tom wrote:

Thank you very much for this review, Geo.
It will be the perfect bow to teach my son asiatic archery.
You cannot be wrong with it.
wink


Welcome!

Edit:  Make sure you watch this video when you first get it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wdSh2m3Tjk

After assembly, as the video tells, you'll have to tame the limbs a bit.  No big deal really as the material is very malleable so you don't need to add heat or anything like that.

I will. Thank for the tip.

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83 (edited by ragnar 2018-06-11 17:37:50)

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Not sure how to stabilize more the flight dynamics of these Eastons other then trimming down the fetching as you suggest but not entirely sure if that will do the trick.

Not sure either.
At least in my case, there was supposedly an over-compensation by the large fin area, in a control-theory-sense.

Addon:
Thy guy in the video states that 340 grain is the lowest you can get with carbon arrows.
Definitely not correct, with selected shafts (like the Maximal Carbon Edge or the Aurel Agil) and lightweight tips you can get to 250...300 grains, even for 33" length.

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84

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

geoarcher wrote:

******Update******

Bow: Elong Outdoor's NIKA ET-4 Meng Yuan Traditional Bow
Bow Rating: 18#@28"
Actual Draw: 21#@32.5"
Arrow Type: Easton Axis 700s @ 32.5"
Arrow weight: 311 grains
GPP: 15
FPS: 127

Energy: 11 ft. lbs.
Efficiency: 0.52

Hopefully this all makes sense as its been a while since I've done one of these. 
And now for a few thoughts: 

I'd say despite such results, this is really the perfect bow to begin with or teach someone else Asiatic archery with the thumb-draw.  You wouldn't even have to give the beginner a leather thumb-ring/protector to teach them.  They could get used to the feeling bare thumbed and eventually make their way up to a thumb-ring.  Its really a shame this bow wasn't around the many many moons I first began shooting Asiatic bows.  Back then most of us started with Toth or Kassai and they were horribly designed and overpriced for what they were.  Plus, we  often times would buy too heavy because those typically were the base entries thinking we would grow into the bow but rather we'd usually end up selling it at a loss without gaining good form and or thumb technique.  At around 80 USD, compared to those bows, which could go anywhere from 300-500 USD, what Elong offers is the perfect solution.  And the bow really is aesthetically pleasing, something that a youtuber actually brought up as being remarkable for a bow at this level.  I'd also like to add that use of molded material seems to allow the bow to have more of harmonious look to it which the laminates seem to lack at times.  Granted, it doesn't really pay to get this caught up over aesthetics but feel its worth bringing up here regardless due the novelty of this bow.

Obviously its not a great performer per the numbers but I wasn't expecting that anyway.  You're pretty much buying this bow for the reason I stated above or because you want something that's 'crab bow' like which I myself have waited eons for to arrive on the market.  Wasn't too keen on it being a take-down especially after seeing that new sensei video but decided to let that go given the price.  Can't tell if that will problem yet as the weather is bad where I test my bows and keep getting rained out.  I was only able to get a few shots off within a minute today before again getting rained out.

As for the feel of the bow, the material seems to give it one of the smoothest, most elastic feels you could get for a bow.  Very bendy.  Feels cool.  Biggest problem is still with arrows, as the Easton Axis 700s tend to fish tale too easily as they do with every bow I shoot them with.  Think it has something to do with the fletching....

Bottom line:  If you aren't expecting astronomical performance numbers, want to try something different, or just starting out or teaching someone, then this bow will deliver.

We actually did testing on these bows too with the intention of carrying them. They are very poor at storing kinetic energy relative to their poundage draw weight, and are slow even for their meager poundage. As you noted though, none of this matters as it is a FANTASTIC starter bow for a great price and (relatively) conveniently sized shipping package. We intended to carry them, but through a complex series of machinations didn't and were lucky to get away without losing a lot of money. We actually had to file a chargeback to recover the funds.  yikes  Not good.  roll There is some evidence that our sample bow was cherrypicked, as Ronald Chong and others say many of them have twist issues that cause them to flip. Based on all that I can't really recommend them, but I would say if you do buy one make sure you use a payment method that allows you some sort of recourse in case they try some monkey business. sad

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

CTR wrote:

We actually did testing on these bows too with the intention of carrying them. They are very poor at storing kinetic energy relative to their poundage draw weight, and are slow even for their meager poundage. As you noted though, none of this matters as it is a FANTASTIC starter bow for a great price and (relatively) conveniently sized shipping package. We intended to carry them, but through a complex series of machinations didn't and were lucky to get away without losing a lot of money. We actually had to file a chargeback to recover the funds.  yikes  Not good.  roll There is some evidence that our sample bow was cherrypicked, as Ronald Chong and others say many of them have twist issues that cause them to flip. Based on all that I can't really recommend them, but I would say if you do buy one make sure you use a payment method that allows you some sort of recourse in case they try some monkey business. sad

I'll admit its somewhat miserable to shoot if far along into Asiatic archery due to its inherent weakness.  I do love the elasticity of it and that profile when pulled far back looks really cool.  Wish I could do that with my heavier pound bows but it really doesn't matter as after all the reason for this bow is really for a beginner.  As we all know.  I actually hope one day to get a few people interested enough in thumb-ring archery in some of the martial arts circles I'm involved in and perhaps do a meetup for Asiatic archery using this bow as the teaching device.  Or teach anyone that may be interested.

Yeah I talked to Ronald too about your situation.  He just mentioned the money part but didn't go into detail about the cherry picking issue.  Did yours have more power or something?  Shame that they were less than ethical. 

I haven't had problems with the limbs yet but the material does have to be tamed as when strung the limbs go uneven.  Not a big deal I find since its very malleable material but would be shocking to someone getting a bow for the first time.  No weird failures either like what new sensei went through but I haven't spent a lot of time with the bow yet to fairly say if that will be a problem for me. 

The other thing that is annoying with the Elong is finding proper arrows for it.  Since most of us are in the 40 to 50 pound range for our bows, naturally we aren't going to have proper arrows lying around in our ammo depot so to speak.  Maybe some do but I sure don't at the moment.

But anyway its just 80 USD and we all know what its most appropriate for anyway.

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86

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

When we got our bow the tiller was dead nuts perfect, and has stayed that way (to this day). There have been a lot of circulated accounts though that these bows have a twist issue which should have affected this batch. While you can never guarantee something was or wasn't cherry picked they A) knew in advance it was a sample for a potential vendor and B) it is a bit suspicious that ours was flawless while other vendors (Ronald included but by several other accounts as well) were coming with limb twist issues. *shrug* Given that they dealt with us in a less than completely honest way, I'm inclined to accept the possibility it isn't pure coincidence.

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

I see.  Well, all I can add is I bought mine a little less than a month ago and haven't seemed to have that problem but wouldn't surprise me if older versions did.  At least they improved it seems.

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88 (edited by geoarcher 2018-10-29 21:22:32)

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

******Update******

Bow: Elong Outdoor's NIKA ET-4 Meng Yuan Traditional Bow
Bow Rating: 30#@28"
Actual Draw: 36#@32.5"
Arrow Type: Easton Axis 700s @ 32.5"
Arrow weight: 311 grains
GPP: 8.6
FPS: 163

Energy: 18 ft. lbs.
Efficiency: 0.50

Only a slight increase in efficiency but I gotta say I enjoy this one so much more.  I was able to get a speed of 155 fps even with one of my 416 grain Goldtips.  The numbers for energy and efficiency may not be there but the enjoyment is.  I wonder if they'll make a 40lb version next or if they'll stop here?

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Interesting/strange bow data:

Bow Rating: 30#@28"
Actual Draw: 31#@32.5"

If the draw weight at 28" is correct, that would mean a tiny 1# increase of draw weight per 3 inches. Most bows I know have about 3..4# per inch for that range.
But I assume the 30#@28" are not correct.

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

ragnar wrote:

Interesting/strange bow data:

Bow Rating: 30#@28"
Actual Draw: 31#@32.5"

If the draw weight at 28" is correct, that would mean a tiny 1# increase of draw weight per 3 inches. Most bows I know have about 3..4# per inch for that range.
But I assume the 30#@28" are not correct.


Well this is the formula I use to figure that out:

(rated draw weight)/(rated length - brace height)*(draw length - brace height)

I'll check the brace height again when I have a minute but I know some use a formula that does not factor such in.

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

I assume "Bow rating" means the specification of the manufacturer (paper value), and "Actual Draw" means your actual measurement.
That makes me wonder if said bow is anywhere near the spec. values at 28" - I guess not.
Perhaps the spec. really means "at 31" and not 28", which would make sense for that type of bow.

Or it has already lost some pounds, as reported from similar Rolan bows.

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

ragnar wrote:

I assume "Bow rating" means the specification of the manufacturer (paper value), and "Actual Draw" means your actual measurement.
That makes me wonder if said bow is anywhere near the spec. values at 28" - I guess not.
Perhaps the spec. really means "at 31" and not 28", which would make sense for that type of bow.

Or it has already lost some pounds, as reported from similar Rolan bows.


Could be 'fat fingering' on my part.  Just hang in there.

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93 (edited by geoarcher 2018-10-29 21:30:31)

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Ok it was fat fingering.  I updated the update with the newest information but also went back and adjusted values for the 20# one.  The story is relatively the same.

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

The story is relatively the same.

Yes. Not really impressive in comparison, but not bad either.
If there was a distributor here in Europe, I would perhaps consider getting one for training. But shipping costs from Asia tend to destroy price advantages.

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95 (edited by geoarcher 2018-10-30 10:56:03)

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

ragnar wrote:

If there was a distributor here in Europe, I would perhaps consider getting one for training. But shipping costs from Asia tend to destroy price advantages.


Have you tried ebay yet?:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NIKA-Archery-T … 1006.m3226

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

It says "may not ship to Austria", usually a sign for significant shipping costs.
Because one of my favourite shops recently dropped their prices for Freddie's bows by about 30%, I rather got a new nomad ktb. And while it's grip looks ugly, it feels and hold really nice.

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Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Hello,
It’s my first post here but I’ve been fascinated with horse bows/Korean bows for some time now and love reading this forum.  I recently have begun archery with a 35# Samick Mind 50. I hope to develop my skill in this hobby and eventually move up to a more appropriate draw weight for deer hunting.  No idea how you guys manage such heavy draw weights but that’s another matter.  I was going to post a new thread but I feel like my question has been touched upon here.

Are horn bows objectively superior to composite bows made from modern materials?

I don’t mean the satisfaction that comes with an historic/traditional approach to archery, appealing as that may be.  Specifically, I am interested in a compact design with speed and efficiency in mind, at draw weights appropriate for a hunting bow.  I would like the smoothest draw possible.  With Mediterranean draw I pull about 28”, with thumb draw (which I am leaning towards nowadays) I pull around 30” I think.

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98

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

It is hard to get comparable data-sets between horn-sinew bows and carbon laminate bows. I've seen some which suggest horn-sinew bows can perform dramatically better than the best carbon laminate bows I've seen, namely bows built by Adam Karpowicz. This is far from universal though, as many well respected makers today don't seem to be willing or able to approach the edges of the performance envelope and so the numbers they offer APPEAR to be roughly in line with (or worse than) modern glass laminate bows. It is extremely difficult to get an apples-to-apples comparison in all cases though, so I'm a long way from certain that horn-sinew bows are definitively superior in performance.

What I can say though is that sinew's elongation at break is considerably higher than carbon's, which in theory allows for much greater pre-load on limbs. I've never seen data though on what the mass-tensile strength ratio is on glue-laden sinew. Remember horn is also worked in ways carbon fiber is generally not on bows, the radiusing of a horn belly allows more compressive load to be borne by less material and the grooving to improve bond strength and blunt the shear line are examples of this.

Again, a true apples to apples comparison is elusive to put it mildly. And all of this is very subjective of what apples to apples really is. You could always look at flight shooting records for respective bow types, the old Istanbul records against modern recurve records might give you the answer you're seeking.

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99 (edited by geoarcher 2018-11-07 03:33:14)

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

Jawa wrote:

Are horn bows objectively superior to composite bows made from modern materials?


I will not answer that question unequivocally as from what I've read over the years the 'answer' can vary due to a myriad of circumstances.  However, I will refer you to this post by someone who posted here some time ago.

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/view … 4481#p4481

Provided the link still works, you can view the spread sheet offered and see many results for both horn composite and modern synthetics.  Hopefully you can still access the spreadsheet.

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100 (edited by geoarcher 2019-01-09 14:28:40)

Re: Chronograph + Analysis of Asiatic & Long Bows (natural & synthetic)

geoarcher wrote:

******Update******

Bow: Elong Outdoor's NIKA ET-4 Meng Yuan Traditional Bow
Bow Rating: 30#@28"
Actual Draw: 36#@32.5"
Arrow Type: Easton Axis 700s @ 32.5"
Arrow weight: 311 grains
GPP: 8.6
FPS: 163

Energy: 18 ft. lbs.
Efficiency: 0.50

Only a slight increase in efficiency but I gotta say I enjoy this one so much more.  I was able to get a speed of 155 fps even with one of my 416 grain Goldtips.  The numbers for energy and efficiency may not be there but the enjoyment is.  I wonder if they'll make a 40lb version next or if they'll stop here?

So just a heads up on this one, this bow actually broke on me.  And after hardly any use.  They have since stood by their product and sent me a new one.

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