Which bow to Beginn KTA (Page 1 of 5)

Of the 2 you mentioned, I'm guessing you'd probably better be off with the Nomad due to draw length.  I had some experience with this one by Kaya and recommend:

http://www.kayaarchery.com/theme/basic/ … .php#bow_1

I start with asiatic, so I don't have the problem to shoot it with Olympic technique but start right away with an asian school of shooting.

I would like to get a teacher, but so far I haven't found a good one nearby.

I don't notice a big difference - except for the stacking, because my Black Cat is shorter (46").

Kaya seems not to bother specifying maximal draw length.
Here in Europe, the bow is available in 46", 48", 50" and 52".
Freddie Archery OTOH specifies the following for it's KTB Kindom, which you can take as guidelines:
Max Draw Length : 44"- 30.42"(77.2cm), 48"- 31.62"(80.3cm), 53"- 33.40"(84.8cm)

In your case, I would definitely go for the longest (52") variant.

Hi,
I'm also a beginner with Archery, and started with KTA. My first bow was a Kaya Black Cat 40lbs 50". I can draw it to 31. Cause I thought it was much to heavy (measured 45lbs at 30, and more than 50lbs at 32) I thought to add a lighter bow to work on my form and got a WF Forever Carbon at 30lbs. This one measured 28lbs at 30" and 36lbs at 33". I can draw 32 with this one. Still the 50 Kaya feels somehow more natural, so I don't know if it was good to go to 53. Accuracy got even worse with the new bow. Might need more training. In hindsight I propably would have gone with a 35lbs 50 Kaya. Then you might get easier into proper back tension, so Khatra becomes less of a problem. Still, to bring the draw arm into proper position, europeans might need a longer bow. The new 30lbs bow tends to shoot quite far to the right with 600 spine arrows, tried 1100 spine and these go far left. Will try 800 spine 33" Skylon Edge or try to get my Khatra more consistent. With good Khatra 400 spine is no problem. The Black Cat looks more high quality, only the grip was far to big, but you get an extra rubberband that you can fix after shaping the grip. Grip on WF is a lot smaller, fits well for my smaller hands, but is "harder" and has a leather style band already glued on. Prefer the Kaya handle. Armin Hirmer has tested the Daylite Monarq, which looks identical to the WF Forever Carbon But I don't know if it has the HM Carbon Layer. As said, I'm just a beginner, and these are my first impressions after one week with the WF. As far as I know these WF are sold as HMG in Korea.

Spine numbers of 1100 are quite high, better be careful. Especially at full length.
Not that I'm a magnificent archer, but spine has not much effect on my shooting. I shoot arrows between 400 and 800, on bows between 25 and 40lbs.
One difference is arrow weight, of course. That makes a visible difference at the max. IFAA range (60yds).
And bad shooting. "Bad form" usually means, I collapse on the shot (relaxing back tension during release).

I noticed this as well. Perhaps they produce the WF bows for the European/Western market, with WF being just a brand name. This not uncommon in the archery industry.
The WF bows feel harder to draw than the Kaya or Freddie bows of the same draw weight, I think.

Just curious here as I'm trying to gauge the effects of something: when you say 'khatra', are you by chance referring to a 'sideways wrist moving' technique or a 'forward wrist moving' technique?

I have some but they are not branded.  I think I either got them from bluelake or over at freddiearchery.  They are kinda like these:

https://www.lancasterarchery.com/aae-hy … -vane.html

You may want go over at freddiearchery and ask him.  He may also be able to source them for you if you care to purchase.

By any chance, do you post on the ATARN FB page?

For the record, there is only one khatra and that is what Taybugha describes in Saracen Archery.  Much of what you describe being 'khatra' can be characterized as both erroneous and even superfluous.

Also, all this talk and worrying about spine drives me crazy.  Really in Asiatic archery traditions, the arrow's relation to the bow was described in terms of its weight.  You can hear Lukas Nuvotny speak of this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTbPokAabAA

Something to consider: many great archers in the past would simply be able to flex the arrow in hand and based on that could determine how to shoot the arrow.  Often times of any shape, size, length or weight.  Ergo why some say its more important to 'be the arrow' in archery rather than the bow.  Although realistically I do feel you need to know how both relate to each other and, to be quite honest, getting to that level where you can simply flex takes quite a bit of time, devotion, and practice.  Unless you are an extremely fast learner and understand the bow enough to strictly 'become the arrow'.

What we can also take away from the above is don't overthink it when it comes to spine and that type of talk.  I mean don't get me wrong.  It has its importance, especially in the beginning.  But to go on and on and on about it is just...mmmmm....tedious.

Most of what you will learn works will have to come from trial and error.  This involves trying out many different types of arrows.  No one will be able to effectively formulate what will work for you by simply discussing spine on any forum.  It will likely only lead to further confusion.  In the beginning, when I bought one of my first bows from Lukas, he gave me the exact same advice, that is to go out and experiment.  I would say though definitely get you preferred draw length down in the beginning.  You can vary things up here and there only AFTER that.

I myself usually don't think too much about spine and all that these days.  Likewise, I also don't worry about twisting the string a billion times.  But I've been doing this a while sooooo......

Be careful of what sources you check for info too.  Lots of misinformation out there plus focus on the wrong things.

Thanks for your response. I'm just really a beginner in Archery trying to learn stuff. I'm not really using FB. As far as I understood spine should be quite irrelevant with good technique. I am already testing many different arrows, and with the Kaya I already can shoot anything from 800 to 400, different thicknesses, weights, length and materials and they still group. So I know spine does not really matter, as long as the arrows are not to soft.  I actually bought the lighter 30 lbs bow to improve my form, and expected that I can shoot instantly more accurate with it, which somehow just does not work that easy. Don't really understand yet why it is like that. If this has to do with back tension, arrows or the grip of the bow or something completely different. Maybe it would be better to go for far stiffer arrows than to go the soft spine route. I don't know yet, but I'm willing to find out. Or better forget spine completely and concentrate on improving form?  I am happy about any advice. I used to work as a trainer/instructor in other complex sports, so I'm trying to find a way for myself to master this stuff as fast as possible. More or less I'm more interested in how can I teach myself and understand it in the most efficient way than only to be able to master asiatic style of shooting after some years of practise. I believe that in ancient times the ability to train new soldiers so they can be useful in war as fast as possible must have been of great interest. Don't know what information exist on this topic. Can you tell me what is the right way of Khatra? When I see videos from Armin or Murat they talk about different styles. And what do you mean with misinformation?

Best regards

Gerold

So there really is no such thing as 'sideways khatra' from a historical standpoint.  'Khatra' is real though and a very specific technique that a Mamluke named Taybugha writes of in the 1300s.  It is a forward movement of the wrist done deliberately in order to improve the speed of the arrow.  The youtube videos you are watching describing multiple khatra are essentially what I am speaking of regarding misinformation.  This type of misinformation is also heavily promulgated on the FB ATARN page.  I made a thread here on khatra discussing this but also putting the technique to test.  You should read:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=915

Beyond what I wrote, you should also read Saracen Archery.  In this book, the actual words of Taybugha have been translated on khatra.  You can read what khatra really is from the actual source there.  The book in general is actually an excellent primer on what you should do to begin learning the general principles of Asiatic/thumb archery.  However, keep in mind that all this was written by a Mamluke in 1300s Middle East.  If you want to learn Korean techniques, or techniques appropriate to Korean archery, you should talk to someone from Korea or find a Korean manual analogous to Saracen Archery.  I should note, in Saracen Archery there are some mentions of Korean archery, although these mentions are insertions by the translators dating to the 1900s and from their own knowledge base, albeit, theoretically sourced from somewhere else. 

Regarding your 30lb bow problem, like I said don't get too caught up thinking about spine and all that.  From my experience at least, lower pound bows are inherently weaker naturally and often times will lob almost any arrow and or cast it poorly.  You'll just have to accept that.  A heavier arrow could help here in improving a more stable flight, albeit, at sacrificing other flight dynamics of the arrow namely speed especially for a lighter pound bow.  Perhaps counter-intuitive, but you are using the bow for training purposes anyway and if you just want to see a 'straighter' more stable flight, then I'd just do that.  Again, don't overthink about spine and or back tension.  Do read Saracen Archery though.  Go out and experiment more with spine and weight.  Learn the relation of your bow to your arrow and vice versa.  That's really the only way you'll see what works.  And don't get your hopes up that every bow at any draw weight is going to cast an arrow out perfectly.  Not all bows are created equally nor are arrows.

Concerning 'lob':

intransitive verb
1a : to move slowly and heavily
b : to move in an arc

Regarding grip modding, I doubt it but you can try.  These things are usually an arrow in relation to the bow problem unless your form and or technique are really really bad but I have no way of assessing that nor care to.... 

BTW, the technique you are describing to get the arrow to pass cleanly without hitting the bow is a legitimate technique apparently used among Koreans in Korean archery.  However, its exact name is unknown and no one seems able of sourcing any literature on it.  I simply refer to it as the 'Korean torque technique' or 'torque'. 

Likewise, it has been stated by one of the more reliable sources over at the old ATARN forum that in the Middle East, the arrow slapping the bow upon release was considered to be bad or undesired.  I am not sure where this was written exactly but its not referenced anywhere as 'khatra' of any sort.

In the meantime I manged to get it right. Just need a lot more torque than with the 40lbs, or I need to do something that Armin Hirmer would call excessive forced Khatra or no Khatra. (Moving the bow hand to the left when I release). Also putting the hand more diagonally on the grip helped. On the 40 lbs I shaped the rubber. In the lower part it is more like an egg, while in the top i had cut it nearly down to the riser. Pressing with the root of the thumb and pulling with the pinky is therefore maybe a bit easier, and the grip is generally a bit more diagonal. Also the rubberband of the Kaya has a better antslip, so the torque stays the same between shots. The leather band of the WF is a bit slippier, so I need to check for correct grip after each shot. Whereas I have the 3 Finger distance between string and bow arm on the 40lbs, I need to have 2 to 3 times as much for the 30 lbs to get a straight arrow flight. I always check the arrow before each shot for too much bending due to draw hand index finger pressure, so that is unlikely to be the problem. As said, I am just a beginner with archery, so it may also be that I still do everything completely wrong, but as long as I can hit the target I don't care too much for now. Still interested to get everything right and get better. Can't believe that you can hit a target in 145m without some technique to get a straight arrow flight.  Be it with back tension like Armin shows with Manchu bows, Khatra, torque or spine tuning, or some other technics that I don't know of.

Khatra's purpose is not to get your arrow flying straight as can be.  Read Saracen Archery....