Topic: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Hi everyone,

I am new to archery and want to start with asiatic traditional archery. From what I found out so far korean laminated bows have the best price/value for entry level bows compared to all the Fiberglass bows same price levels.

So far I am training with resistance bands form and strength before I get my bow.
I noticed I prefer a draw length from 32" to 34".
I train right now with light weight and many reps (100+) with a 20# band for muscle memory and working on good form. And working my way up for strength with higher resistance, 40# right now with sets of 20 reps while keeping form.

I hope I can start with a 40# bow with this training which I will continue for a while before I get a bow.
Nevertheless I am looking for the right bow already and so far I found good offers for the Kaya Black Cat, the Nomad KTB and the Nomad black shadow. All of them between 140-155€

Wich bow would you recommend out of these or do you guys even have a better recommendation?

The Kaya has good reviews but the limbs seem wider than the nomad. Does it effect the arrow path more?
I thought the 52/53"  bows might be right for my draw length. What do you guys think?

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2 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-13 01:14:36)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Of the 2 you mentioned, I'm guessing you'd probably better be off with the Nomad due to draw length.  I had some experience with this one by Kaya and recommend:

http://www.kayaarchery.com/theme/basic/ … .php#bow_1

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

I tend to agree to geoarcher.
However, I would suggest to look for a mentor or teacher. KTA is quite different than the ubiquitous mediterranean/olympic style. Perhaps you have such a club near you.
The internet/Youtube is a quite incomplete reference ...

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

I start with asiatic, so I don't have the problem to shoot it with Olympic technique but start right away with an asian school of shooting.

I would like to get a teacher, but so far I haven't found a good one nearby.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Can anyone tell me about the max safe draw length of a Kaya KTB/ Black Cat. I can not find much information about it.

Is there a big difference between Kaya KTB and Nomad Ktb in shooting? The nomad looks like it has more narrow limbs than the Kaya.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

strawanski wrote:

Is there a big difference between Kaya KTB and Nomad Ktb in shooting? The nomad looks like it has more narrow limbs than the Kaya.

I don't notice a big difference - except for the stacking, because my Black Cat is shorter (46").

strawanski wrote:

Can anyone tell me about the max safe draw length of a Kaya KTB/ Black Cat. I can not find much information about it.

Kaya seems not to bother specifying maximal draw length.
Here in Europe, the bow is available in 46", 48", 50" and 52".
Freddie Archery OTOH specifies the following for it's KTB Kindom, which you can take as guidelines:
Max Draw Length : 44"- 30.42"(77.2cm), 48"- 31.62"(80.3cm), 53"- 33.40"(84.8cm)

In your case, I would definitely go for the longest (52") variant.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

That's what I expected already, to go with the longest version.
I wrote Kaya and asked about the draw length of the KTB. Curious whether they answer and what they answer.

@ragnar: Is your Nomad 52"? How long does it draw smoothly?
A 33" draw doesn't help much if it has to be forced the last two inches in my opinion.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Hi,
I'm also a beginner with Archery, and started with KTA. My first bow was a Kaya Black Cat 40lbs 50". I can draw it to 31. Cause I thought it was much to heavy (measured 45lbs at 30, and more than 50lbs at 32) I thought to add a lighter bow to work on my form and got a WF Forever Carbon at 30lbs. This one measured 28lbs at 30" and 36lbs at 33". I can draw 32 with this one. Still the 50 Kaya feels somehow more natural, so I don't know if it was good to go to 53. Accuracy got even worse with the new bow. Might need more training. In hindsight I propably would have gone with a 35lbs 50 Kaya. Then you might get easier into proper back tension, so Khatra becomes less of a problem. Still, to bring the draw arm into proper position, europeans might need a longer bow. The new 30lbs bow tends to shoot quite far to the right with 600 spine arrows, tried 1100 spine and these go far left. Will try 800 spine 33" Skylon Edge or try to get my Khatra more consistent. With good Khatra 400 spine is no problem. The Black Cat looks more high quality, only the grip was far to big, but you get an extra rubberband that you can fix after shaping the grip. Grip on WF is a lot smaller, fits well for my smaller hands, but is "harder" and has a leather style band already glued on. Prefer the Kaya handle. Armin Hirmer has tested the Daylite Monarq, which looks identical to the WF Forever Carbon But I don't know if it has the HM Carbon Layer. As said, I'm just a beginner, and these are my first impressions after one week with the WF. As far as I know these WF are sold as HMG in Korea.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

strawanski wrote:

Is your Nomad 52"? How long does it draw smoothly?

No, "only" 48". That is a Kaya KTB, draw length up to 32".
But my draw is only about 29 ... 29,5".
I have a 40lbs Nomad which is 53" long, and feels easier at full draw than the black cat.

If you have a chance, try it at a dealer.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

The new 30lbs bow tends to shoot quite far to the right with 600 spine arrows, tried 1100 spine and these go far left.

Spine numbers of 1100 are quite high, better be careful. Especially at full length.
Not that I'm a magnificent archer, but spine has not much effect on my shooting. I shoot arrows between 400 and 800, on bows between 25 and 40lbs.
One difference is arrow weight, of course. That makes a visible difference at the max. IFAA range (60yds).
And bad shooting. "Bad form" usually means, I collapse on the shot (relaxing back tension during release).

JGH wrote:

Armin Hirmer has tested the Daylite Monarq, which looks identical to the WF Forever Carbon But I don't know if it has the HM Carbon Layer.

I noticed this as well. Perhaps they produce the WF bows for the European/Western market, with WF being just a brand name. This not uncommon in the archery industry.
The WF bows feel harder to draw than the Kaya or Freddie bows of the same draw weight, I think.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Spine numbers of 1100 are quite high, better be careful. Especially at full length

I know, they are Avalon Tyros with vanes that belong to my 20lbs Polaris. Was just a try, as someone here on the forum wrote about KTA and Spine. Have a lot of trouble with the 600 Spine 31,5" arrows on the 30 lbs WF compared to the 40lbs Kaya. With the 40lbs Kaya I can hit a 40cm Field Target @ 20m without problems, mostly 40% of arrows in the gold or close to it, rest on the 1 and 3 but on the target, while form is not really good as the bow is generally far to heavy for me. With the 30lbs WF arrows are all over the place, group far to the right. With bad Khatra you can hear the shaft touching the riser. Managed now to hit the center with starting new with close distance torba and moving slowly back to 12m. My unconscious mind can compensate for  the right grouping, but as soon as I get the arrow into my view picture, my whole shooting breaks down as I need to really shoot badly to the left. With the 40lbs I can line the arrow up with the gold and will hit close to gold. With the 30 lbs if I line the arrow up with the target the 600 spine arrow hits 50 cm to the right at 15m distance. The 1100 will hit 30 cm to the left of the gold. It is possible to compensate for all of this by purely instinctive shooting, but it's really hard as soon as the focus goes on the arrow for a second I can start over again with Torba at 1,5m distance to get my instincts right.

Maybe this might also have to do something with my cross eye dominance, I don't know. Will try to shoot lefthanded to see if this is working better. Hope for the 800 spine arrows to arrive tomorrow, hope that these work better. Ordered 3" Impulse vanes and 4" natural feathers for them, will try out what works better. Does anybody know which vanes are used in Korea?

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12 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-23 22:49:25)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

With bad Khatra you can hear the shaft touching the riser.

Just curious here as I'm trying to gauge the effects of something: when you say 'khatra', are you by chance referring to a 'sideways wrist moving' technique or a 'forward wrist moving' technique?

JGH wrote:

Does anybody know which vanes are used in Korea?

I have some but they are not branded.  I think I either got them from bluelake or over at freddiearchery.  They are kinda like these:

https://www.lancasterarchery.com/aae-hy … -vane.html

You may want go over at freddiearchery and ask him.  He may also be able to source them for you if you care to purchase.

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13 (edited by JGH 2020-09-24 01:15:35)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

I'm trying all Khatra styles, but use mainly sideways, which works just fine with the 40 lbs  Kaya. With FW Khatra I somehow don't get a good arrow flight yet, and arrow goes down.. does not feel that good. Normally shoot 600 Spine 4.2mm ID, works just fine with the Kaya. . 400 spine warrior went to the right with not so good Khatra, but with better Khatra flies the same as the 600 spines. On the 30 lbs the 400 spines Warrior flies better than the 600 spines. Worst is a 5.2mm ID 600 spine which slaps really hard against the riser. Need to get better Khatra on this bow or maybe  either stiffer or softer arrows. Just saw a nice video on this topic on YT by Bamboo Archery of Malaysia which explains the topic quite well. They also advise to try a more "dirty" release by twisting the string.. I'll try that tomorrow..

https://youtu.be/XKIpXr32kP4

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14 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-24 03:12:38)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

I'm trying all Khatra styles, but use mainly sideways, which works just fine with the 40 lbs  Kaya. With FW Khatra I somehow don't get a good arrow flight yet, and arrow goes down.. does not feel that good. Normally shoot 600 Spine 4.2mm ID, works just fine with the Kaya. . 400 spine warrior went to the right with not so good Khatra, but with better Khatra flies the same as the 600 spines. On the 30 lbs the 400 spines Warrior flies better than the 600 spines. Worst is a 5.2mm ID 600 spine which slaps really hard against the riser. Need to get better Khatra on this bow or maybe  either stiffer or softer arrows. Just saw a nice video on this topic on YT by Bamboo Archery of Malaysia which explains the topic quite well. They also advise to try a more "dirty" release by twisting the string.. I'll try that tomorrow..

https://youtu.be/XKIpXr32kP4

By any chance, do you post on the ATARN FB page?

For the record, there is only one khatra and that is what Taybugha describes in Saracen Archery.  Much of what you describe being 'khatra' can be characterized as both erroneous and even superfluous.

Also, all this talk and worrying about spine drives me crazy.  Really in Asiatic archery traditions, the arrow's relation to the bow was described in terms of its weight.  You can hear Lukas Nuvotny speak of this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTbPokAabAA

Something to consider: many great archers in the past would simply be able to flex the arrow in hand and based on that could determine how to shoot the arrow.  Often times of any shape, size, length or weight.  Ergo why some say its more important to 'be the arrow' in archery rather than the bow.  Although realistically I do feel you need to know how both relate to each other and, to be quite honest, getting to that level where you can simply flex takes quite a bit of time, devotion, and practice.  Unless you are an extremely fast learner and understand the bow enough to strictly 'become the arrow'.

What we can also take away from the above is don't overthink it when it comes to spine and that type of talk.  I mean don't get me wrong.  It has its importance, especially in the beginning.  But to go on and on and on about it is just...mmmmm....tedious.

Most of what you will learn works will have to come from trial and error.  This involves trying out many different types of arrows.  No one will be able to effectively formulate what will work for you by simply discussing spine on any forum.  It will likely only lead to further confusion.  In the beginning, when I bought one of my first bows from Lukas, he gave me the exact same advice, that is to go out and experiment.  I would say though definitely get you preferred draw length down in the beginning.  You can vary things up here and there only AFTER that.

I myself usually don't think too much about spine and all that these days.  Likewise, I also don't worry about twisting the string a billion times.  But I've been doing this a while sooooo......

Be careful of what sources you check for info too.  Lots of misinformation out there plus focus on the wrong things.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

No reply from Kaya yet...

From the descriptions I get from you and on other pages I tend to believe that Kaya might have the better overall Quality and shooting experience with a smoother draw.
But the customer service seems not that good, what makes me think that in case of a bow failure they might not be easy to deal with.
Please tell me if that's a wrong assumption.

But due to that feeling I just wanna throw in the Nomad Black Shadow. Any experience and comparison to the nomad KTB or Kaya KTB?

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16

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Thanks for your response. I'm just really a beginner in Archery trying to learn stuff. I'm not really using FB. As far as I understood spine should be quite irrelevant with good technique. I am already testing many different arrows, and with the Kaya I already can shoot anything from 800 to 400, different thicknesses, weights, length and materials and they still group. So I know spine does not really matter, as long as the arrows are not to soft.  I actually bought the lighter 30 lbs bow to improve my form, and expected that I can shoot instantly more accurate with it, which somehow just does not work that easy. Don't really understand yet why it is like that. If this has to do with back tension, arrows or the grip of the bow or something completely different. Maybe it would be better to go for far stiffer arrows than to go the soft spine route. I don't know yet, but I'm willing to find out. Or better forget spine completely and concentrate on improving form?  I am happy about any advice. I used to work as a trainer/instructor in other complex sports, so I'm trying to find a way for myself to master this stuff as fast as possible. More or less I'm more interested in how can I teach myself and understand it in the most efficient way than only to be able to master asiatic style of shooting after some years of practise. I believe that in ancient times the ability to train new soldiers so they can be useful in war as fast as possible must have been of great interest. Don't know what information exist on this topic. Can you tell me what is the right way of Khatra? When I see videos from Armin or Murat they talk about different styles. And what do you mean with misinformation?

Best regards

Gerold

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17

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

strawanski wrote:

No reply from Kaya yet...

From the descriptions I get from you and on other pages I tend to believe that Kaya might have the better overall Quality and shooting experience with a smoother draw.
But the customer service seems not that good, what makes me think that in case of a bow failure they might not be easy to deal with.
Please tell me if that's a wrong assumption.

But due to that feeling I just wanna throw in the Nomad Black Shadow. Any experience and comparison to the nomad KTB or Kaya KTB?

I only know the two bows that I own, but if you are in europe you might check the big distibutors ssa archery in Belgium and JVD in the Netherlands. Any dealer around europe should be able to sell the korean bows they offer. It is indeed very difficult to understand the differences between the bows. Armin Hirmer gives you some infos on YT. If I were in the US I would propably contact bluelake..
At the moment I would buy a Kaya again, but I don't know if the Hwarang or YMG is not much better.. Armin also made a video on this one.

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18 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-25 19:11:17)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

Thanks for your response. I'm just really a beginner in Archery trying to learn stuff. I'm not really using FB. As far as I understood spine should be quite irrelevant with good technique. I am already testing many different arrows, and with the Kaya I already can shoot anything from 800 to 400, different thicknesses, weights, length and materials and they still group. So I know spine does not really matter, as long as the arrows are not to soft.  I actually bought the lighter 30 lbs bow to improve my form, and expected that I can shoot instantly more accurate with it, which somehow just does not work that easy. Don't really understand yet why it is like that. If this has to do with back tension, arrows or the grip of the bow or something completely different. Maybe it would be better to go for far stiffer arrows than to go the soft spine route. I don't know yet, but I'm willing to find out. Or better forget spine completely and concentrate on improving form?  I am happy about any advice. I used to work as a trainer/instructor in other complex sports, so I'm trying to find a way for myself to master this stuff as fast as possible. More or less I'm more interested in how can I teach myself and understand it in the most efficient way than only to be able to master asiatic style of shooting after some years of practise. I believe that in ancient times the ability to train new soldiers so they can be useful in war as fast as possible must have been of great interest. Don't know what information exist on this topic. Can you tell me what is the right way of Khatra? When I see videos from Armin or Murat they talk about different styles. And what do you mean with misinformation?

Best regards

Gerold


So there really is no such thing as 'sideways khatra' from a historical standpoint.  'Khatra' is real though and a very specific technique that a Mamluke named Taybugha writes of in the 1300s.  It is a forward movement of the wrist done deliberately in order to improve the speed of the arrow.  The youtube videos you are watching describing multiple khatra are essentially what I am speaking of regarding misinformation.  This type of misinformation is also heavily promulgated on the FB ATARN page.  I made a thread here on khatra discussing this but also putting the technique to test.  You should read:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=915

Beyond what I wrote, you should also read Saracen Archery.  In this book, the actual words of Taybugha have been translated on khatra.  You can read what khatra really is from the actual source there.  The book in general is actually an excellent primer on what you should do to begin learning the general principles of Asiatic/thumb archery.  However, keep in mind that all this was written by a Mamluke in 1300s Middle East.  If you want to learn Korean techniques, or techniques appropriate to Korean archery, you should talk to someone from Korea or find a Korean manual analogous to Saracen Archery.  I should note, in Saracen Archery there are some mentions of Korean archery, although these mentions are insertions by the translators dating to the 1900s and from their own knowledge base, albeit, theoretically sourced from somewhere else. 

Regarding your 30lb bow problem, like I said don't get too caught up thinking about spine and all that.  From my experience at least, lower pound bows are inherently weaker naturally and often times will lob almost any arrow and or cast it poorly.  You'll just have to accept that.  A heavier arrow could help here in improving a more stable flight, albeit, at sacrificing other flight dynamics of the arrow namely speed especially for a lighter pound bow.  Perhaps counter-intuitive, but you are using the bow for training purposes anyway and if you just want to see a 'straighter' more stable flight, then I'd just do that.  Again, don't overthink about spine and or back tension.  Do read Saracen Archery though.  Go out and experiment more with spine and weight.  Learn the relation of your bow to your arrow and vice versa.  That's really the only way you'll see what works.  And don't get your hopes up that every bow at any draw weight is going to cast an arrow out perfectly.  Not all bows are created equally nor are arrows.

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19

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Thanks.
What is the meaning of "lob" (sorry long time ago that I learned english at school)?
I'll try the soft arrows and some heavy and stiff 400 spines as well. Had the same problem - while more consistent with the 40 lbs Kaya in the beginning - the 400 spine flew always far to the right, now it's no problem anymore. Shows quite well if you are able to get the riser out if the way, no matter how this is done or called.
Maybe I also need to modify the grip of the WF a bit as I did on the Kaya, to get a more consistent gripping.

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20 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-24 18:33:14)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

Thanks.
What is the meaning of "lob" (sorry long time ago that I learned english at school)?
I'll try the soft arrows and some heavy and stiff 400 spines as well. Had the same problem - while more consistent with the 40 lbs Kaya in the beginning - the 400 spine flew always far to the right, now it's no problem anymore. Shows quite well if you are able to get the riser out if the way, no matter how this is done or called.
Maybe I also need to modify the grip of the WF a bit as I did on the Kaya, to get a more consistent gripping.

Concerning 'lob':

intransitive verb
1a : to move slowly and heavily
b : to move in an arc

Regarding grip modding, I doubt it but you can try.  These things are usually an arrow in relation to the bow problem unless your form and or technique are really really bad but I have no way of assessing that nor care to.... 

BTW, the technique you are describing to get the arrow to pass cleanly without hitting the bow is a legitimate technique apparently used among Koreans in Korean archery.  However, its exact name is unknown and no one seems able of sourcing any literature on it.  I simply refer to it as the 'Korean torque technique' or 'torque'. 

Likewise, it has been stated by one of the more reliable sources over at the old ATARN forum that in the Middle East, the arrow slapping the bow upon release was considered to be bad or undesired.  I am not sure where this was written exactly but its not referenced anywhere as 'khatra' of any sort.

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21 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-25 19:29:06)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Something else I have to bring up here is that any bow hand technique in any Asiatic archery tradition throughout the centuries could be regarded as superfluous.  That's not to say that is doesn't make a difference, but consider that the samurai would actually put a sticky resin in their bow holding hand to ensure the bow would not drastically turn or twist away from its original position during combat.  The aim was to ensure rapid fire arrows, yet, samurai time and time again were able to make deadly shots without much thought, need, or desire for significant torque or rotation of the bow.  This is of course different to what we see in Kyudo today but Kyudo's purpose is a bit different than Kyūjutsu's. Extrapolating a bit from this, it is extremely doubtful that any Turkic or Mongolic horse archers would have worried that much while on horse back about a bow hand technique.

Also, on one of the threads here, bluelake even mentions that not everyone in Korea uses a torque technique.  That's not to say that such a technique does not have its purpose or effectiveness.  Just again, it can be regarded as superfluous.

Another criterion that is crucial to check for when you shoot an arrow is what is actually going on with your drawing hand.  Often times the hand presses against the arrow too much and bends it.  If you look out the corner of your eye at the arrow while in full draw, you can observe for this.  This is of course will cause the arrow to go out of proper flight very easily.  Unfortunately, its something we forget to check for quite a bit, and more often a major if not THE major reason our arrow's flight is so bad.

Generally speaking, all draw hand related issues should be checked out before even worrying about the bow hand's.  After that, then go to your arrows and see if they are they problem.  Then consider what you can reasonably expect out of the bow.

Bow hand technique is a very, very, very distant last to check for.  Really, if the above is correct, then bow hand technique should be, in fact, superfluous.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

In the meantime I manged to get it right. Just need a lot more torque than with the 40lbs, or I need to do something that Armin Hirmer would call excessive forced Khatra or no Khatra. (Moving the bow hand to the left when I release). Also putting the hand more diagonally on the grip helped. On the 40 lbs I shaped the rubber. In the lower part it is more like an egg, while in the top i had cut it nearly down to the riser. Pressing with the root of the thumb and pulling with the pinky is therefore maybe a bit easier, and the grip is generally a bit more diagonal. Also the rubberband of the Kaya has a better antslip, so the torque stays the same between shots. The leather band of the WF is a bit slippier, so I need to check for correct grip after each shot. Whereas I have the 3 Finger distance between string and bow arm on the 40lbs, I need to have 2 to 3 times as much for the 30 lbs to get a straight arrow flight. I always check the arrow before each shot for too much bending due to draw hand index finger pressure, so that is unlikely to be the problem. As said, I am just a beginner with archery, so it may also be that I still do everything completely wrong, but as long as I can hit the target I don't care too much for now. Still interested to get everything right and get better. Can't believe that you can hit a target in 145m without some technique to get a straight arrow flight.  Be it with back tension like Armin shows with Manchu bows, Khatra, torque or spine tuning, or some other technics that I don't know of.

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23 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-25 20:47:40)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

I need to do something that Armin Hirmer would call excessive forced Khatra...(Moving the bow hand to the left when I release).

Yeah, that's just called torque.  No need to associate it with khatra as its wrong.  I know youtube and FB land can be a very loud and persuasive voice since its so repetitive but ask those guys which text speaks of 'excessive forced khatra(h)'.  They may pull a rabbit out the hat at the end of the day...

JGH wrote:

Can't believe that you can hit a target in 145m without some technique to get a straight arrow flight.

Well, maybe not you but in Korea they sure can.  Go on youtube and watch what Korean traditional archers do at their range.  You'll see that bow hand torque does not always occur.  But hey to each their own as they say.  Some need it, some don't apparently. 

Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if its necessity for some people is to help compensate for either poor right hand technique or something else.  These things though are really only able to be pinned down on your own or if you have a good teacher.  But I'm glad to hear that you are able to figure some of this out through your own trial and error. 

Keep at it M8.

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24 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-25 20:35:16)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

Be it with....Khatra....

Khatra's purpose is not to get your arrow flying straight as can be.  Read Saracen Archery....

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

geoarcher wrote:
JGH wrote:

Be it with....Khatra....

Khatra's purpose is not to get your arrow flying straight as can be.  Read Saracen Archery....

Seems to be a lot of confusion on the net on what is Khatra, what not and also Torque I understood as a preloading of the wrist, so that the string moves to the right, and the riser maybe only half an inch to the left, which in my current feeling is enough to get a straight arrow flight. But you say torque is not a rotation of your wrist, but more a rotation in the shoulder to get the whole bow to the left? If I do that I currently also can get a straight arrow flight, but when I overdo it, arrow goes to the left, if I am to slow arrow goes to the right. For now I prefer to just preload the wrist cause I belive that this is much more cinsistent, as long as the preloading is always the same. But hey, I'm still a beginner  who is just testing stuff... maybe in two weeks time I have a complete different way if shooting.

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