Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

But you say torque is not a rotation of your wrist, but more a rotation in the shoulder to get the whole bow to the left?

No I never said that.  We have discussions on torque here in the technique section of the forum and I'll provide the links below:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=816

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=231

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=612

The guy named joomong gives a very good succinct explanation albeit with a few confusing words that I'll leave out here: 'If you....grip the bow lightly, and when full draw, you twist your wrist CCW slightly'. 

So I'm in agreement that its all in the wrist.  There's also a video on youtube about somewhere that provides a very good explanation and footage of the technique in action.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

And yes there is much confusion on the net regarding khatra and torque.  The two are jumbled up with each other, and I've even seen it done by one other person here besides you.  Maybe this will help:

khatra: forward wrist movement; said to improve speed

torque: sideways wrist movement; said to improve flight of the arrow (make more of a 'center shot')

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

geoarcher wrote:
JGH wrote:

Be it with....Khatra....

Khatra's purpose is not to get your arrow flying straight as can be.  Read Saracen Archery....

I'm also a bit interested in history, but that is not my main goal to try thumbrelease shooting. For me it's the most archaic and natural way of shooting and includes a lot of mind related stuff. If I just wanted to punch holes accurately in paper I would most prooably use some kind of office equipment and not olympic recurves, and if I wanted to shoot some kind of modern style I would try and get a G3 gun as we used during military service, or a modern crossbow. Olympic archery seems very far from what bows and arrows were used for the last 20000 years in hunting and war, let's say survive. And while this Saracene Archers stuff is very interesting, this is propably only a very small part of the knowledge that existed to survive as a human race for 10 thousends of years. I also believe that Koreans speak Korean but not Arab, so the word Khatra might have been unknown there for thousends of years. Our knowledge is very very small, maybe during some times most people were able to shoot like Lars Anderson, just cause they had to in order to survive.. who knows?

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29 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-26 08:39:17)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

I'm also a bit interested in history...

That's good.

JGH wrote:

....it's the most archaic and natural way of shooting

A pinch draw is probably more archaic and 'natural'.  Mostly what Paleolithic people would have done.


JGH wrote:

and includes a lot of mind related stuff.

Some of it more than others.  Some people add more mind stuff then is really needed and others vice versa.

JGH wrote:

Olympic archery seems very far from what bows and arrows were used for the last 20000 years in hunting and war....

This much is true.  Except the war thing.  That probably doesn't happen until the Neolithic or later Meso.

JGH wrote:

And while this Saracene Archers stuff is very interesting, this is propably only a very small part of the knowledge that existed to survive as a human race for 10 thousends of years.

So Saracen Archery is actually based off of a treatsie on archery written by Taybugha in the Middle East in the 1300s.  I find myself repeating things alot in this conversation....  Anyway, his work was not entitled 'Saracen Archery' mind you and there were plenty of other treatsie on archery not only in the middle east, but also Europe, and East Asia.  The thing with Saracen Archery is this: it is the most accessible, most comprehensive translation with insertions on Asiatic archery we have today.  There is a lot of stuff probably from Joseon era Korea but also feudal Japan that we don't have access to because it has not been translated yet for western consumption.


JGH wrote:

I also believe that Koreans speak Korean but not Arab,...

Good belief to have as its is actually backed by empirical knowledge too.

JGH wrote:

so the word Khatra might have been unknown there for thousends of years.

Not only the word, but technique too.  I mean, make sure you understand what khatra is and what it actually refers to.  Then ask a Korean archer, if in the history of Korean traditional archery, if such a technique has ever been utilized.

Also ask them what they refer to their torque technique as.  You will likely get two different terms out of them and explanations if any for the first.

Keep in mind though, some techniques may be newer then you think and clearly not as ancient.

JGH wrote:

Our knowledge is very very small, maybe during some times most people were able to shoot like Lars Anderson, just cause they had to in order to survive.. who knows?

Actually what Lars does is straight out of the exhibition style shooting section of the book entitled 'Arab Archery' which is yet another treatsie on archery written in the middle east.  Its unlikely that what he demonstrates was used by the average archer or even all that practical especially when factoring draw weights of bows used in combat at that time.  Horn composite bows for war had draw weights ranging from 90 to about 150 pounds.  Even the strongest of archers probably were not concerning themselves with all that trick shooting that Lars shows us and wants us to believe was used in a far more ubiquitous manner.

I mean, all those techniques are straight out of the 'trick' or 'exhibition' section of 'Arab Archery'.  Says it clearly in the book.  Our problem in more ways is not that our knowledge is very very small, but rather, given what we have learned or have access to is, more often than not, bluntly understood.

Many particularly on FB, YT, and elsewhere have a tendency to assign more to what is actually being presented and thus distort what the original sources have said leaving us with a poor(er) foundation then what we could have ever started with in the first place.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

geoarcher wrote:
JGH wrote:

But you say torque is not a rotation of your wrist, but more a rotation in the shoulder to get the whole bow to the left?

No I never said that.  We have discussions on torque here in the technique section of the forum and I'll provide the links below:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=816

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=231

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=612

The guy named joomong gives a very good succinct explanation albeit with a few confusing words that I'll leave out here: 'If you....grip the bow lightly, and when full draw, you twist your wrist CCW slightly'. 

So I'm in agreement that its all in the wrist.  There's also a video on youtube about somewhere that provides a very good explanation and footage of the technique in action.

I think that I've seen most of these videos. Still not that easy to copy for a beginner like me, and I've also seen a lot of discussions on that topic.

Regarding the problems I had for now I can only guess:

1. Lighter bows need more torque than heavier bows
or
2. The limbs of the Kaya are a lot wider near the riser, but  thinner at the siyah, maybe the HMG just needs more torque
or
3. it is just related to the shape of the handle.
4. Some spine related stuff
5. The 30lbs is bigger.. 53 vs 50
6. a combination of all of this...

No idea. In two weeks I will propably not be able to remember why I ever had that problem..

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

In two weeks I will propably not be able to remember why I ever had that problem..

In 2 weeks, you may improve so much that you may not need to worry about these things and just shoot the bow.  A lot of it is just feeling your way through.

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32

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

geoarcher wrote:
JGH wrote:

In two weeks I will propably not be able to remember why I ever had that problem..

In 2 weeks, you may improve so much that you may not need to worry about these things and just shoot the bow.  A lot of it is just feeling your way through.

Most propably. Many seem to struggle for a long time. Maybe these rememberings will help some other beginners when I have long forgotten this stuff.

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33

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

I believe that there must have been a lot more to archery during times we don't know anything about, but bow and arrow were a lot more important to the survival of humans before humans became farmers. Arab archery and this Saracen stuff is really good, but only a very small portion of the knowledge that must have been there in former times when humans were mainly nomadic hunters. Trickshooting might always have been practised just as a training for hunting or war, even if war weapons had to be stronger. If you look at dinghy sailing:during a race you don't do any tricks, but in training you do everything, just to get a better feeling for your boat, waves and windshifts and become a better racer.

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34 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-26 00:12:23)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

I believe that there must have been a lot more to archery during times we don't know anything about, but bow and arrow were a lot more important to the survival of humans before humans became farmers. Arab archery and this Saracen stuff is really good, but only a very small portion of the knowledge that must have been there in former times when humans were mainly nomadic hunters.

So you're essentially talking about Paleo and Mesolithic societies it sounds.  We could actually extrapolate from contemporary Austronesian tribal societies as they seem to preserve more of a Paleo-Meso lifestyle.  As far as I know, they have no elaborate archery tricks or anything remotely like what is written of in Arab Archery.  There isn't too much reason to assume Paleo-Meso people did elaborate acrobatic style archery.  Its actually pointless to even discuss this.  Warfare and technology become more complex as time went on.  Hunter-gatherer societies were more likely concerned with just being able to put food on the table.

JGH wrote:

Trickshooting might always have been practised just as a training for hunting or war...

Again, probably not.  Especially if you are talking about Paleo-Meso/hunter gatherer societies.  Trick shooting more likely has its place elsewhere in a context that you're overlooking: to entertain the Sultan.  The development of trick shooting is probably better linked to the development of complex societies and seems to exist more for entertainment or exhibition purposes.


JGH wrote:

...even if war weapons had to be stronger.

Doubtful yet again.  You can't make every warrior/soldier a master trick shooter.  Not remotely practical nor would you need to.  Totally superfluous. Just like bow hand techniques.   Now we're in the Bronze age...

JGH wrote:

If you look at dinghy sailing:during a race you don't do any tricks, but in training you do everything, just to get a better feeling for your boat, waves and windshifts and become a better racer.

I doubt this is a good apples to apples analogy here but really don't care or want to learn anything else about Dingy sailing.

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35

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Maybe you are right, maybe wrong as we don't have any written texts from former times. Trickshooting to entertain the Sultan, yes good possible, even today people earn money with that. Still everything else is also possible. During my military service we had radar controlled 40 mm cannons with uranium heads for air defense. Still, more or less for fun we also practised shooting at planes (they were towing a target dummy, of course) with machine guns - which looked to us like children toys compared to our weapon system and practised a more or less instinctive shooting technic, which even worked quite well at a distance of 1500 m. Don't think that you can win a war that way, but nevertheless it was a good experience that you can hit something at that distance with a simple machine gun and a very basic sighting system.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

Trickshooting to entertain the Sultan, yes good possible...

More like the reality.  I had a discussion years ago with Bede Dwyler (an excellent researcher) over at the old ATARN forum before it was transferred over to FB and became what it is today.  He had some good info to share based on historical accounts regarding all this trick shooting:

Bede wrote:

Shooting displays as part of military themed public entertainments were well documented and in Mamluk times furusiyya manuals detail what types of performances were expected. Whether in archery, lance work or swordsmanship, the high level of skill needed is obvious from reading the texts. These were opportunities for warriors to show off their skills to their masters and for the sultan and the amirs to show the skills of their troops to the assembled people. This does not mean the performances were exact replicas of real battle techniques. It was more like the entertaining and complex marching done at the Edinburgh Tattoo rather than what the same soldiers would do in battle.

Some of what is referenced in Arab Archery's stunt section has real applicability to warfare.  Some of it not so much, and would have just been more of a show off thing.  If you are critical enough, and understand the bows and arrows made and used during this time, you can pick apart yourself which is which when going through this section in Arab Archery.

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37 (edited by JGH 2020-09-26 11:08:26)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

geoarcher wrote:
JGH wrote:

Trickshooting to entertain the Sultan, yes good possible...

More like the reality.  I had a discussion years ago with Bede Dwyler (an excellent researcher) over at the old ATARN forum before it was transferred over to FB and became what it is today.  He had some good info to share based on historical accounts regarding all this trick shooting:

Bede wrote:

Shooting displays as part of military themed public entertainments were well documented and in Mamluk times furusiyya manuals detail what types of performances were expected. Whether in archery, lance work or swordsmanship, the high level of skill needed is obvious from reading the texts. These were opportunities for warriors to show off their skills to their masters and for the sultan and the amirs to show the skills of their troops to the assembled people. This does not mean the performances were exact replicas of real battle techniques. It was more like the entertaining and complex marching done at the Edinburgh Tattoo rather than what the same soldiers would do in battle.

Some of what is referenced in Arab Archery's stunt section has real applicability to warfare.  Some of it not so much, and would have just been more of a show off thing.  If you are critical enough, and understand the bows and arrows made and used during this time, you can pick apart yourself which is which when going through this section in Arab Archery.

Regarding Arabs and arab archery you are propably right. But this is only a small part of this planet, and only a small amount of time if you look at how long humans use weapons. How much do we really know on how did Huns, Avars, Mongols, Vikings, Persians used bow and arrow, and especially how did they practise to become such good warriors. You just can't start on day one you use a bow by killing enemies. Arabs were a very well organised culture, where books and training manuals will have existed. In other parts of the world this did not exist. Old saxons as an example were not organised, they only elected leaders in wartime and formed alliences between some tribes, but there was no Sultan, no King, no military education, every tribe did things different. We don't even really know how the old saxons and angles, who spoke a language similar to that we use here on that forum used bows. Yes there are reports from some romans that state that germanic tribes did not use bow and arrow in war. But is that true, and if it's true, was that only true for the 20 years he had a chance to observe that, or for 10000 years back... We see today how fast things can change. Just look at the last 70 years since WW2 how military tactics and technology have changed.

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38 (edited by geoarcher 2020-09-26 15:09:42)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

How much do we really know on how did Huns, Avars, Mongols, Vikings, Persians used bow and arrow....

Actually, there is quite a decent amount of information about all these people in texts and how they practiced archery.  Especially Persians.  There is an overwhelming amount of info written in Persian on Persian archery.  Some of which has been translated into a book.  Huns have a lot recorded about them and their archery from Roman sources as well as Mongols, Vikings and the like from their adversaries.  And no the Romans didn't interact with Germanic people for like just 20 years.  There is more info out there then you realize and the Romans weren't really bad historians like everyone always tries to make them out to be...

The information that you are making out to be nonexistent is not that nonexistent at all.  I myself have books that discuss what the Vikings, Mongols, Persians, Avars, and even Indians (India) did to varying degrees regarding their archery.  All of this information comes from a primary source one way or another.

You're a noob to all this and appear to have not even bothered doing any type of literature review.  The information you seek is not going to come to you if you don't go out and get it yourself.  Other than that, you're going to just invent things in your mind which there is no basis for.  Which is like what SCA people do.  Which is bad.  Its kinda like Medieval Disneyland what they do.

Anyway, we've veered off topic too much in this thread.  You should really go out and start researching this stuff yourself though so you can get better educated on it all since you yourself mention you are quite new.  Period.

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39

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

Ok, thanks, will try to find out more on the text you mentioned. As said, I'm not shooting korean bows cause I'm interested in history, just like to shoot that way. I'm interested in archery, but Olympic style does not look very interesting to me.
But on the other hand I am still generally interested in history, and love to learn more about ancient technology.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

I just came across the Segyue from Ali Bow.
Anyone compared them to a kaya or nomad yet?

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41 (edited by geoarcher 2020-10-02 00:29:40)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

strawanski wrote:

I just came across the Segyue from Ali Bow.
Anyone compared them to a kaya or nomad yet?

Someone reviewed the Segyue here:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/view … 5216#p5216

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/view … 5040#p5040

My 2 cents on Alibow in general is that, unfortunately, its probably best to stay completely away from them due to a number of factors unless you can buy their bows from a vendor and not directly from the company.  Someone else here will have to tell you how their Korean bows specifically compare to those others.

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42

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

ragnar wrote:
JGH wrote:

The new 30lbs bow tends to shoot quite far to the right with 600 spine arrows, tried 1100 spine and these go far left.

Spine numbers of 1100 are quite high, better be careful. Especially at full length.
Not that I'm a magnificent archer, but spine has not much effect on my shooting. I shoot arrows between 400 and 800, on bows between 25 and 40lbs.
One difference is arrow weight, of course. That makes a visible difference at the max. IFAA range (60yds).
And bad shooting. "Bad form" usually means, I collapse on the shot (relaxing back tension during release).

JGH wrote:

Armin Hirmer has tested the Daylite Monarq, which looks identical to the WF Forever Carbon But I don't know if it has the HM Carbon Layer.

I noticed this as well. Perhaps they produce the WF bows for the European/Western market, with WF being just a brand name. This not uncommon in the archery industry.
The WF bows feel harder to draw than the Kaya or Freddie bows of the same draw weight, I think.


Measured draw weight at full draw this weekend:: 40lbs Kaya at 31.5"=60 lbs, shoots like a rocket, 30 lbs WF forever carbon at 33 inches:42lbs. WF draws very smooth all the way to 33 or 34".
I use 33" Skylon Edge 800 spine, 4.2gpi with 75gr tips and 4iinch feathers on the WF. Much easier to shoot now, arrows fly a lot straighter. I can also shoot GT warrior 400 spine, but need a lot of torque. From what I can see all White Feather, Daylite and Nomad bows are made by HMG in Korea

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

Measured draw weight at full draw this weekend:: 40lbs Kaya at 31.5"=60 lbs, shoots like a rocket, 30 lbs WF forever carbon at 33 inches:42lbs.

That seems a bit much.
Draw weights of KTBs are specified for 31", so 20lbs for a half inch seem ... a lot.

JGH wrote:

WF draws very smooth all the way to 33 or 34".

My 30lbs WF Carbon Forever (53") draws much stiffer then the 30lbs Kaya KTB, and even the 35lbs Black Cat.
My WF bows are more then 3 years old, though. Maybe they had been modified in the meantime.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

I can also shoot GT warrior 400 spine, but need a lot of torque.

I suspect this is a form issue, with insufficient follow-through. This was my problem for months as well.
If you do not keep up the back tension throughout the shot, the bowhand comes inward at the release. I tried to counter this issue with torque as well.
Correcting this problem - existing with other styles I practice - removed the need for explicit torque.
As said, a mentor or trainer would be helpful.

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45

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

ragnar wrote:
JGH wrote:

I can also shoot GT warrior 400 spine, but need a lot of torque.

I suspect this is a form issue, with insufficient follow-through. This was my problem for months as well.
If you do not keep up the back tension throughout the shot, the bowhand comes inward at the release. I tried to counter this issue with torque as well.
Correcting this problem - existing with other styles I practice - removed the need for explicit torque.
As said, a mentor or trainer would be helpful.

Thanks for your reply. Well 800 spine works really good, with just a little bit of torque. But I believe that you are right regarding back tension. With the Kaya - we measured 3 times with a 32" arrow nocked in 60 lbs - I popably just have so much back tension that the bowhand automatically goes to the left on release I believe. With the 42 lbs otf of the WF this just seems not to happen automatically. Need to work on this. I just saw on a korean webpage that they seem to specify a different arrow for each length/lbs combination, so Koreans seem to very finely tune the arrows to their bows.  Also the HMG is sold as RH and  LH in Korea, they seem to be tillered off center. Only the "export" bows are offered ambidex. Would love to be able to shoot such a bow with the proper tuned arrows one day. Maybe that is the reason why they only need a little bit of torque...?

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

With the 42 lbs otf of the WF this just seems not to happen automatically. Need to work on this.

There is a difference between "can shoot" and "can shoot properly".
For me, that limit is 35..40lbs, depending on general form. Less after some lazy weeks.
If you don't really reach full draw, and can't hold it for several seconds, it is probably too much for you. Continue to shoot that way likely introduces bad habits (avoidance technique). That's why I went down to 25lbs after seriously starting with thumb archery. Only then results really improved.

JGH wrote:

Also the HMG is sold as RH and  LH in Korea, they seem to be tillered off center. Only the "export" bows are offered ambidex. Would love to be able to shoot such a bow with the proper tuned arrows one day. Maybe that is the reason why they only need a little bit of torque...?

Interesting to hear. There is very little presence of Koreans here in Austria, even less of traditional Korean archery. So, I need to rely on second-hand information in this regard.
But I remember some of the Freddie Archery KTA bows shipped with a rubber arrow shelf - which was glued on either left or right.
But I remember

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47

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

I don't think that they use the arrow shelfs Freddie sells in Korea.... As far as I understand it the string is not in the middle, but a bit on the right side for RH bows.... So might be less of a problem with arrows slapping against the riser.

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Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

As far as I understand it the string is not in the middle, but a bit on the right side for RH bows....

Which reminds me of a video from Ryan Gill, which I saw some while ago. Perhaps you know his YT channel.
He mentioned that when making primitive bows, he tries to use a twistedness of the stave to his advantage.
Putting the arrow rest position on the inward bent side reduces archer's paradox, and makes spine considerations less critical.
Although, with differently tillered limbs (upper & lower, to account for the handle), you have a non-ambidextrous bow again.

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49

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

I would really love to know how an original korean right hand tillered bow shoots vs all the ambidextrious export models that we can buy here in EU. Nobody around with some experience? I checked the arrows that shoot best with my WF 30lbs (42lbs at max draw) vs the dynamic spine calculator at 3riversarchery. By trial and error I found light 800 spine 4.2 gpi with 100 grain tips and 33" to shoot best. The above calculator comes to the exact same result. Just did a bareshaft test at 18m, arrow sticks absolutely straight in the gold of a 40cm field target with minimum handle torque.

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50 (edited by geoarcher 2020-12-04 02:00:58)

Re: Which bow to Beginn KTA

JGH wrote:

I would really love to know how an original korean right hand tillered bow shoots vs all the ambidextrious export models that we can buy here in EU...

So focusing in on the part of your original post which I framed here, I have to say I don't think what you are bringing up really applies to the laminate versions of the traditional Korean bows.  Unless you know of another more authoritative source, Thomas/bluelake came back on here in 2018 and stated that there is no such thing as a 'Korean-tiller' for the laminated bows.  See here for more details:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=851

To be clear, that would mean none of the laminate versions have a tilt to the right or left to accommodate the dexterity of the archer for the purpose of ensuring a 'center-shot' without the use of torque.  However, the original horn composites or 'gak-gung' apparently can have a 'Korean tiller' set in them according to one actual Korean horn bow master-maker I briefly conversed with not too long ago.  Although not of all them do or are supposed to either.  I believe I also heard somewhere that this tiller type can be removed from the gak-gung after a straightening process based on the archer's preferred shooting style.

That being said, there has been a lot of confusion on the subject.  The story may change here again, but these are the facts as I understand them at the moment derived from what would appear to be the most relevant authoritative sources.

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