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bluelake wrote:Tawfiq Ibrahim wrote:I am in the midst of building a heating box for the Korean traditional bows I have but have yet to use.
I have already built a wooden box of 65x 65x15cm. For heating I am using a 25W light bulb, will put a thermostat and a thermometer.
at what average temperature should box have?
How long do the bows have to be kept in there before stringing?
Any suggestions?
Here is relating to horn bows in Korea:
In the summer, 30-34℃ and in the winter, 27-30℃; should be about 5℃, or so, higher than the outside temperature.
Regarding stringing, the heating will be done over a heat source just prior to bracing/balancing; I would say if the bow is allowed a day or two in the jeomhwajang (heat closet), it will probably be o.k.
many thanks Bluelake for the clear instructions.
I am in the midst of building a heating box for the Korean traditional bows I have but have yet to use.
I have already built a wooden box of 65x 65x15cm. For heating I am using a 25W light bulb, will put a thermostat and a thermometer.
at what average temperature should box have?
How long do the bows have to be kept in there before stringing?
Any suggestions?
raven wrote:bluelake wrote:Hi Tawfiq,
That is very strange that you are getting that at 30". Even with a regular-length bow, I can usually pull back to about 32" or so with no feeling of stacking. Usually, the bows will reach a certain draw length and then just stop, but are smooth to draw up to that point.
T
This has been my experience. I just plan on not drawing the bow to what would amount to a 35" draw for myself.
Maybe this has been commented on, but the average korean is going to have a shorter draw length than the average Pollock like myself.
We have to keep in mind the people who developed such a splendid weapon.
Here is my theory behind the development of all traditional indigenous bows.
1. Purpose and use of the weapon.
2. Readily available materials.
3. Genetic makeup of the people who developed them.......and very closely following that is the cultural influence.
My two cents......it maybe only worth 1 cent though.... 
Reasonable observation, but my original underlying point is that if one cannot be shooting at full aperture we will never be shooting the Korean bow correctly…and now that Korean archery is increasingly going international it would seem reasonable, and in their interest, for the manufactures to make some of their carbon bows a little longer for those extra long arms of some of their foreign clients. If now some of their bows come in “short”, “standard” and “long” sizes then why not encourage them to make the “extra long”? It would make some of us very happy. 
Trident wrote:Ahhh that makes sense! I was wondering why my bow became harder to shoot after a while lately when it usually became easier during the summer 
makes total sense...
There is of course another factor one should be wise not to forget and that is with age our muscles and just about everything else get tired sooner, so some of the staking may be an excuse for old age.
Thanks! If all the above is not information then what is?
By rubber glue is the one use on leather meant?
Was the ray skin actually used on old bows as it was on some sword handles?
WarBow wrote:The weather is getting cold and the Hwarang becomes much harder to pull than during summer. Ginni has the same experience. What about others?
During summer, I could draw the long version of the 70-5# YMG to 32". Right now, the winter weather is making it very difficult to draw past 31" Unfortunately, I do not have a bow weight scale.
That is very true with lower temperature they seem to be harder to open. I keep mine inside the house so when I go outside to shoot they are OK at the beginning but as soon as I take a short rest while they hang outside they seem to harden so now I bring them back in and put them near the radiator.
Actually with the real horn-sinew bows ( Manchurian and Hungarian) the hardening in winter feels much more radical so relatively carbon bows seem to be less affected.
Trident wrote:You have to google stingray hides or stingray skins... They come in all types of colors, And isn't cheap but it also isn't that expensive. Try to get the best quality you can there is a difference in feel and shininess. Some barge or rubber cement once fitted and you are good to go.
Thanks blue lake for the information, I have just ordered a few skins in discreet colors.
How does the skins fit best on the grip; one rectangular single peace adapted to the grip or a long thin strip wound around it?
Did the old horn bows have that kind of material?
Trident wrote:You can catch your own as zdog mentioned., lmao... Or you can buy some on eBay the quality ones these days come from Thailand and they ship internationally for the most part.
As I remember, when I was much younger and did those things, they are quite easy to spear when skin diving. They seem to be so confident of their sting they just stay put in the sand when approached. But once you speared the you better move out of the way fast as they like that and lashed furiously whichever way. I remember caching them was not considered sport for being too easy. In any case zdog no need to catch the here as they are regularly on the market and are quite tasty deep-fried, lots of cartilage though.
Thanks Trident, any google address as all I have found are wallets made of that skin.
Hi Ginni,
Were does one get natural ray skin?
Thanks Cristian for the images, they have been quite useful. I very recently acquired both the bows you illustrated, (55# & 56# at 28”). The last couple of days I have left them both strung on a tiller at 30” and this morning they seem to open further or perhaps I have gotten stronger in the last two days
I took note of the double winding of the arrows on your Kungdae. I have tried it and it gives a very stable hold on the arrows, even when over done with twenty of them…..
zdogk9 wrote: but it feels as if there is a solid wall I'm pulling against. If I let my back muscles kick in at this point it's smooth to anchor at my ear, 33".
Thanks, the solid wall I uderstand and feel, but the rest I am not sure I do.
My intended question is if manufacturing the carbon Korean bow at a longer length and therefore larger opening structurally feasible?
As its use gets more international I think there will be a increasing need by some users for such an extra long one.
bluelake wrote:My old bowyer friend, now paralyzed, made two types of historic bows, but not one like I think you are talking about. He made two mokgung and one yegung (which might have contributed to his physical problem).
How did making those wooden bows affect his health? Is there anything in the process that is particularly dangerous?
bluelake wrote:Hi Tawfiq,
That is very strange that you are getting that at 30". Even with a regular-length bow, I can usually pull back to about 32" or so with no feeling of stacking. Usually, the bows will reach a certain draw length and then just stop, but are smooth to draw up to that point.
T
You are right blue lake, using my Easton arrow length indicator and a mirror this time I do get a 32” aperture on the outer part of bow on my old Hawarang and 31”on the Song Mu and Yeun Moo ones. They surely open up well until then but that leaves my best opening at mid jaw!
The problem is in the lenght of my arms not the bows.
The question is, are the real horn-sinew ones more flexible?
Am I really the only one with this problem??
As much as I like the Korean bows I have a basic problem with them which I was wondering if others have.
I regularly use three of the modern carbon ones, including a Hawarang, and even though they are all of the so-called “long” versions they all stack very badly at around 30”, while my aperture with the thumb draw is 34”+.
Admittedly I do have extra long arms but with the traditional Chinese horn-sinew bow I have no problem getting a 35” aperture (my problem then is worrying about the carbon arrows being too short).
Is the limitation in the carbon?
Are the traditional Korean bows of horn and sinew that more flexible??
bluelake wrote:According to what I've been told, Northern bows typically had narrower limbs than the Southern bows; they were faster, but less stable and broke more often.
....incredible, an even more delicate bow!?
This would indicate, it would seem, that the bow that has survived to the present is no war-bow but very much a refined aristocratic-sport bow and intentionally so.
Are there examples of sturdier military bows in museums or collections and if so how do they differ?
bluelake wrote:Gaeseong, which is just over the northwest border from South Korea; that city was the center of the northern-style horn bows in Korea
How did that bow differ?
bluelake wrote: Several years ago, I talked with Stephen Selby about the idea of trying to put on a joint North-South trad archery friendly competition (Kind of a "Shooting for Peace" idea); however, it didn't get very far due to the trad archery situation in the North being relatively unknown. At the time, Stephen was going to try to talk with the NK consul, or somebody, in HK, but I don't think anything ever became of it.
That last was a great idea and would have been a most interesting event!!!
Even speculating from just hear say that some military units do in fact still practice is fascinating enough as that would necessarily entail a lot of traditional bow makers being still around in the north. Would their bows look exactly as those traditional ones in the South? How would they differ?
Or perhaps, deception, they stock up by secretly buying all the hawarang bows, and similar, they can get.
Thanks. It is very understandable that many Koreans do not like the name gungdo as that was part of a much greater cultural threat; the attempt to eradicate the Korean language and scripture and replace it with the Japanese one.
Is there any information as to how Korean archery has done in the North or has it not survived there?
I am curious to know something of the history of how Korean archery was treated, if at all, by the Japanese ocupation (1910-1945). Was it repressed like most aspects of Korean culture or not? And how was it practiced under what must have been very dire conditions?
Thanks, I will keep trying a bit more with the sugakji just to get an idea as to how differently it functions.
The Kuksulwon archers should have some very hardened thumbs.!!
Obviously starting at an early age helps a lot and even though the bare thumb may seem painful to us today it seems obvious when looking at the large nocks of old arrows that the strings made of natural filaments were very much thicker than the ones we use modernly with artificial fibers. This much larger circumference would therefore distribute the pressure more evenly on the thumb. A couple of years ago I tried to imitate this by wrapping three turns of a soft leather strap in the place where the thumb goes on the string of a light 40# Chinese style bow and it was quite comfortable and fast to shoot, it still is. I have not tried it with higher draw weights as there is a clear down side to this, and it is that esthetically your thumb ends up looking not so nice at all and worst the ladies here will unabashedly tell you so 
Trident wrote:.. sugakji and an amgakji and both are good. They are both different and have their own points
I have no problem with the Amgakiji but how does the Sugakji work?? I tried one which I just bought when I was in Korea but on tying it was a surprise as it flew out with the arrow obviously too large, I have fixed that with some leather addition. I was told that the index finger is held over the horn and not the thumb. Is that correct? Any more tips before I try again?
In any case for speed shooting, that is arrows per minute, and confort , I much prefer the thin leather thumb ring. It fits tightly on the thumb and does not nove so you do not have to slightly reajust after every arrow as you do with the hard rings.
I really find it very hard, as regards the historic past, to believe in the military use of the rigid or hard thumb ring ( be it horn, jade-stone, or metal - or cossing cultures the massive Japanese Yugake) or at least that it would be in general use by the common soldier-archer, be he mounted or on foot, as it would make dificult, unconfotable if not imposible the use of alternative weapons, be it sword, lance or mace ( just imagine using any of the last with the Sugakji!)
Yes I do.
Tawfiq ( user name)
sorry too for being just a little late
T. I
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