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Measured draw weight at full draw this weekend:: 40lbs Kaya at 31.5"=60 lbs, shoots like a rocket, 30 lbs WF forever carbon at 33 inches:42lbs. WF draws very smooth all the way to 33 or 34".
I use 33" Skylon Edge 800 spine, 4.2gpi with 75gr tips and 4iinch feathers on the WF. Much easier to shoot now, arrows fly a lot straighter. I can also shoot GT warrior 400 spine, but need a lot of torque. From what I can see all White Feather, Daylite and Nomad bows are made by HMG in Korea

Regarding Arabs and arab archery you are propably right. But this is only a small part of this planet, and only a small amount of time if you look at how long humans use weapons. How much do we really know on how did Huns, Avars, Mongols, Vikings, Persians used bow and arrow, and especially how did they practise to become such good warriors. You just can't start on day one you use a bow by killing enemies. Arabs were a very well organised culture, where books and training manuals will have existed. In other parts of the world this did not exist. Old saxons as an example were not organised, they only elected leaders in wartime and formed alliences between some tribes, but there was no Sultan, no King, no military education, every tribe did things different. We don't even really know how the old saxons and angles, who spoke a language similar to that we use here on that forum used bows. Yes there are reports from some romans that state that germanic tribes did not use bow and arrow in war. But is that true, and if it's true, was that only true for the 20 years he had a chance to observe that, or for 10000 years back... We see today how fast things can change. Just look at the last 70 years since WW2 how military tactics and technology have changed.

I believe that there must have been a lot more to archery during times we don't know anything about, but bow and arrow were a lot more important to the survival of humans before humans became farmers. Arab archery and this Saracen stuff is really good, but only a very small portion of the knowledge that must have been there in former times when humans were mainly nomadic hunters. Trickshooting might always have been practised just as a training for hunting or war, even if war weapons had to be stronger. If you look at dinghy sailing:during a race you don't do any tricks, but in training you do everything, just to get a better feeling for your boat, waves and windshifts and become a better racer.

I think that I've seen most of these videos. Still not that easy to copy for a beginner like me, and I've also seen a lot of discussions on that topic.

Regarding the problems I had for now I can only guess:

1. Lighter bows need more torque than heavier bows
or
2. The limbs of the Kaya are a lot wider near the riser, but  thinner at the siyah, maybe the HMG just needs more torque
or
3. it is just related to the shape of the handle.
4. Some spine related stuff
5. The 30lbs is bigger.. 53 vs 50
6. a combination of all of this...

No idea. In two weeks I will propably not be able to remember why I ever had that problem..

Seems to be a lot of confusion on the net on what is Khatra, what not and also Torque I understood as a preloading of the wrist, so that the string moves to the right, and the riser maybe only half an inch to the left, which in my current feeling is enough to get a straight arrow flight. But you say torque is not a rotation of your wrist, but more a rotation in the shoulder to get the whole bow to the left? If I do that I currently also can get a straight arrow flight, but when I overdo it, arrow goes to the left, if I am to slow arrow goes to the right. For now I prefer to just preload the wrist cause I belive that this is much more cinsistent, as long as the preloading is always the same. But hey, I'm still a beginner  who is just testing stuff... maybe in two weeks time I have a complete different way if shooting.

Thanks.
What is the meaning of "lob" (sorry long time ago that I learned english at school)?
I'll try the soft arrows and some heavy and stiff 400 spines as well. Had the same problem - while more consistent with the 40 lbs Kaya in the beginning - the 400 spine flew always far to the right, now it's no problem anymore. Shows quite well if you are able to get the riser out if the way, no matter how this is done or called.
Maybe I also need to modify the grip of the WF a bit as I did on the Kaya, to get a more consistent gripping.

Thanks for your response. I'm just really a beginner in Archery trying to learn stuff. I'm not really using FB. As far as I understood spine should be quite irrelevant with good technique. I am already testing many different arrows, and with the Kaya I already can shoot anything from 800 to 400, different thicknesses, weights, length and materials and they still group. So I know spine does not really matter, as long as the arrows are not to soft.  I actually bought the lighter 30 lbs bow to improve my form, and expected that I can shoot instantly more accurate with it, which somehow just does not work that easy. Don't really understand yet why it is like that. If this has to do with back tension, arrows or the grip of the bow or something completely different. Maybe it would be better to go for far stiffer arrows than to go the soft spine route. I don't know yet, but I'm willing to find out. Or better forget spine completely and concentrate on improving form?  I am happy about any advice. I used to work as a trainer/instructor in other complex sports, so I'm trying to find a way for myself to master this stuff as fast as possible. More or less I'm more interested in how can I teach myself and understand it in the most efficient way than only to be able to master asiatic style of shooting after some years of practise. I believe that in ancient times the ability to train new soldiers so they can be useful in war as fast as possible must have been of great interest. Don't know what information exist on this topic. Can you tell me what is the right way of Khatra? When I see videos from Armin or Murat they talk about different styles. And what do you mean with misinformation?

Best regards

Gerold

Spine numbers of 1100 are quite high, better be careful. Especially at full length

I know, they are Avalon Tyros with vanes that belong to my 20lbs Polaris. Was just a try, as someone here on the forum wrote about KTA and Spine. Have a lot of trouble with the 600 Spine 31,5" arrows on the 30 lbs WF compared to the 40lbs Kaya. With the 40lbs Kaya I can hit a 40cm Field Target @ 20m without problems, mostly 40% of arrows in the gold or close to it, rest on the 1 and 3 but on the target, while form is not really good as the bow is generally far to heavy for me. With the 30lbs WF arrows are all over the place, group far to the right. With bad Khatra you can hear the shaft touching the riser. Managed now to hit the center with starting new with close distance torba and moving slowly back to 12m. My unconscious mind can compensate for  the right grouping, but as soon as I get the arrow into my view picture, my whole shooting breaks down as I need to really shoot badly to the left. With the 40lbs I can line the arrow up with the gold and will hit close to gold. With the 30 lbs if I line the arrow up with the target the 600 spine arrow hits 50 cm to the right at 15m distance. The 1100 will hit 30 cm to the left of the gold. It is possible to compensate for all of this by purely instinctive shooting, but it's really hard as soon as the focus goes on the arrow for a second I can start over again with Torba at 1,5m distance to get my instincts right.

Maybe this might also have to do something with my cross eye dominance, I don't know. Will try to shoot lefthanded to see if this is working better. Hope for the 800 spine arrows to arrive tomorrow, hope that these work better. Ordered 3" Impulse vanes and 4" natural feathers for them, will try out what works better. Does anybody know which vanes are used in Korea?