• Registered: 2010-10-22
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Topic: Bow Falling forward

Please, forgive my ignorance but in an effort to learn proper Korean Technique I would like to post a few questions. One being, recently I have seen some historical photos of korean Hwarang Knights shooting off of horseback with the bow falling forward after the shot.

And although that seems to be consistent with all the other historical photos Ive seen, not all of todays Korean archers do this. Why is that?

Second being, what would be the advantage of this? I know yumi shooters do this, and I know the reasoning, but they do it in a manner that allows the bow to propel itself forward, where some of todays Korean archers look as though they are twisting the bow forward with the wrist?

I have many more questions, but will leave it at this for now.
Thank you,
Joe

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  • Registered: 2010-10-15
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Re: Bow Falling forward

Hi Joe,

Many Korean archers will do similarly, but it's not universal.  It really kind of depends upon who taught them.  My teacher taught me to let the bow dip a bit (along with the string twist a bit to the arrow side); it was supposed to reduce paradox, I guess...


T

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  • Registered: 2010-10-22
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Re: Bow Falling forward

Interesting. For the life of me I cannot find a video, that I once had of a yumi bow, and a device that was to made show the advantages of letting the bow twist in the hand, or propel forward.

With the same arrow and same bow, the device showed what a contrast there was in a bow that remaind stationary after the shot, and a bow that was allowed to fall naturally forward.

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4 Reply by EM

  • EM
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  • Registered: 2011-12-18
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Re: Bow Falling forward

Hi Raven,
it is this video, maybe (tsunomi technique) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaMzl3uo9Sk

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  • Registered: 2010-10-22
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Re: Bow Falling forward

That is the video!!

So do the Korean archers that propel the bow forward, are they getting around the paradox? Wouldnt this be beneficial in that one could use a heavier spined arrow?

Joseph

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  • Registered: 2012-02-01
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Re: Bow Falling forward

Technically speaking, rotating the bow to a half round or just dipping with slightly rotate are very similar as the arrow diameter is so small (7-9 mm).

The arrow 's also so fast. If you look at the video t=5:29, the arrow touch the bow anyway. Large or small rotation are just a product of follow through which happened several millisec after the arrow left the string.

I saw some historic painting show foot archers shoot their bow with their bow half turn rotate (cant find it now) and I have  practiced that style since then. Personally, I found the style 's fit for me as I had zero hand shock and my gripping, pusshing are more consistent.

Unlike Japanese Kyudo, Korea archery seems to be more flexible in term of minor detail. I attended one school, had one master and three teachers, they told me the same basic technique but they have slightly different detail.   

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/s_issara/th_shoot-1.jpg

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  • From: Chungju, South Korea
  • Registered: 2012-08-19
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Re: Bow Falling forward

I have a funny feeling the rotation or tilting (in both cases) comes from the archer's grip on the bow. 

Since the grip is set before the draw with the focus being that the point of pressure is from the heel of the palm (just below the thumb muscle, where the bone to the wrist can be felt).

When drawing the bow the grip is pulled arrow-side a little... when the arrow is released the wrist/grip is released to correct and rotates/tilts back again (mostly with a little over compensation due to the pressure release!).

I've been told by different archers at my Jung to either rotate or tilt (depending on their own personal style).  Personally I find that I rotate my bow as I concentrate the power towards the aforementioned heel of my hand.

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8 Reply by tonygt19 (edited by tonygt19 2013-07-15 21:19:13)

  • Registered: 2012-07-27
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Re: Bow Falling forward

IrishArcher wrote:

I have a funny feeling the rotation or tilting (in both cases) comes from the archer's grip on the bow. 

Since the grip is set before the draw with the focus being that the point of pressure is from the heel of the palm (just below the thumb muscle, where the bone to the wrist can be felt).

When drawing the bow the grip is pulled arrow-side a little... when the arrow is released the wrist/grip is released to correct and rotates/tilts back again (mostly with a little over compensation due to the pressure release!).

I've been told by different archers at my Jung to either rotate or tilt (depending on their own personal style).  Personally I find that I rotate my bow as I concentrate the power towards the aforementioned heel of my hand.

I think you're absolutely right. I think most people even some who give the advice don't realize the dynamics of this twisting,  tilting thing. See the end of chapter 14 in this treatise, www.pgmagirlscouts.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/saracen_archery.pdf , where the tilting is treated only as a "follow through".
In their defense it does happen too fast to see. The arrow is only affected by what forces act on it as it is leaving the bow not by what dance steps the archer performs when it is gone. Twisting the grip  could very well move the nock and string slightly to the right as it is being driven forward. This would align the front and back of the arrow to its true direction of flight. Forcibly tilting the handle forward could lift the back of the arrow off the thumb of the grip hand minimizing friction there by the fletching. It is interesting that both these effects are attempted by the off center tillering of korean bows by the bowyer and the high nock placement by the archer in Korean Archery.

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  • Registered: 2011-10-16
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Re: Bow Falling forward

tilting the handle forward could lift the back of the arrow off the thumb of the grip hand minimizing friction there by the fletching.

That is true...however I have an additional theory: when you remove the thumb from the string (realease), the low side of the string (below the arrow) starts to straighten being pulled by the the bottom bow limb. The top limb starts to move only after the string is straight. Therefore, there is a slight delay (1 ms or so) between the times when the top and bottom limbs start to move. Rotating the bow forward puts more pressure on the top limb, equalizing the limbs speed.

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10 Reply by tonygt19 (edited by tonygt19 2013-07-18 23:09:34)

  • Registered: 2012-07-27
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Re: Bow Falling forward

storm wrote:

tilting the handle forward could lift the back of the arrow off the thumb of the grip hand minimizing friction there by the fletching.

That is true...however I have an additional theory: when you remove the thumb from the string (realease), the low side of the string (below the arrow) starts to straighten being pulled by the the bottom bow limb. The top limb starts to move only after the string is straight. Therefore, there is a slight delay (1 ms or so) between the times when the top and bottom limbs start to move. Rotating the bow forward puts more pressure on the top limb, equalizing the limbs speed.

Are you saying that the inertia of arrow alone  is keeping the top limb from moving until the bottom part of the string becomes taut?If you are right that's a keen insight. Unfortunately the only way to prove these hypotheses is to record these interactions with very high speed video. I see you are already doing that but you may need something close to a 1/50,000 of a sec frame rate to show it clearly. Being a scientist I am very interested in these kinds of investigations. I have some colleagues who do very high speed stop action photos. Maybe through a series of those shots the interaction could be reconstructed. Let me know if you are interested, who knows, perhaps this would be publishable work.

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  • Registered: 2011-10-16
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Re: Bow Falling forward

I have noticed in high speed videos that the top limb starts moving later. I will have to dig up the movies or even better, make new ones to show this.

Another thing I noticed on one bow, is that the lower half of the strings tends to oscillate. I do not if it happened because of the technique, the bow, or both. Again, I'll search the video in my archive.

Are you saying that the inertia of arrow alone  is keeping the top limb from moving until the bottom part of the string becomes taught?

Hmm..I haven't really wondered why it happens, but this makes perfect sense. The only way to find out is to make a dry shot and check cool . of course, that is not an option, but heavy and light arrows could be used....wait...this might explain the oscillations mentioned above. The bow I was mentioning is a 75# or so Hwarang shooting about 45g arrows, in winter. Maybe the inertia is really playing an important role.

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  • Registered: 2011-10-16
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Re: Bow Falling forward

What do you mean by "very high speed stop action photos". How fast can they do that?

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  • Registered: 2012-07-27
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Re: Bow Falling forward

Hmm..I haven't really wondered why it happens, but this makes perfect sense. The only way to find out is to make a dry shot and check cool . of course, that is not an option, but heavy and light arrows could be used....wait...this might explain the oscillations mentioned above. The bow I was mentioning is a 75# or so Hwarang shooting about 45g arrows, in winter. Maybe the inertia is really playing an important role.

Yes, during the period of time the string takes to clear the thumb and thumbring (probably a millisecond or less) that long arrow would have the Inertia of a telephone pole. That's why it bends first before actually moving forward. And the string below the nock would suddenly be released more quickly sideways than forward. that would certainly set up oscillations before it became taut.

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14 Reply by tonygt19 (edited by tonygt19 2013-07-18 23:46:54)

  • Registered: 2012-07-27
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Re: Bow Falling forward

storm wrote:

What do you mean by "very high speed stop action photos". How fast can they do that?

A Canon 580 flash can have a flash duration of 1/40,000 of a second when set to 1/128th power. It is useful up to a few inches with a macro lens. It would probably work for this. To go faster you'd need an air-gap flash.

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