1 Topic by Mule (edited by Mule 2014-03-09 01:24:34)

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Topic: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

How necessary is it really to heat box a true hornbow? The reason I ask is I've never heard of Turkish or Mongolian heatboxes for their bows despite sharing the same horn/sinew construction as Korean bows. Lukas Novotny (of Saluki) also says hornbows aren't very vulnerable to moisture, the only problem would be if moisture and heat was combined.

Which makes me wonder, Korean summers are some of the hottest/most humid summers I've ever encountered outside of tropical areas. Could it be the Korean (or other areas with humid summers) climate simply isn't suitable for sinewed bows and that's what makes heat box storage necessary? Turkish summers for instance are very dry, it's blisteringly hot under the sun but very cool if you find some shade.

I'm toying with the idea of getting a hornbow and basically I'm wondering if all this trouble is really necessary in western Europe with relatively low humidity and mild summers.

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

Mule wrote:

How necessary is it really to heat box a true hornbow? The reason I ask is I've never heard of Turkish or Mongolian heatboxes for their bows despite sharing the same horn/sinew construction as Korean bows. Lukas Novotny (of Saluki) also says hornbows aren't very vulnerable to moisture, the only problem would be if moisture and heat was combined.

Which makes me wonder, Korean summers are some of the hottest/most humid summers I've ever encountered outside of tropical areas. Could it be the Korean (or other areas with humid summers) climate simply isn't suitable for sinewed bows and that's what makes heat box storage necessary? Turkish summers for instance are very dry, it's blisteringly hot under the sun but very cool if you find some shade.

I'm toying with the idea of getting a hornbow and basically I'm wondering if all this trouble is really necessary in western Europe with relatively low humidity and mild summers.

Lukas and I argued that point back twenty years ago; he was quite angry with me when I said otherwise.  Horn bows--Korean horn bows, for sure--are susceptible to moisture.  Korean fletchers will obtain broken bows from Korean bowyers in order to soak the bows to recover the sinew for wrapping bamboo arrow nocks.  Korean archers using horn bows will still shoot on wet days, but will take care to keep them dry.  Korean climates can vary from very cold and dry to wet and hot.

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3 Reply by Mule (edited by Mule 2014-03-09 19:34:05)

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

But that's the thing, you might both be correct (within those two climates).

Average Hungarian summers are 21 degrees Celsius and 60% relative humidty which makes for 11g/m3 absolute humidity.

Average Korean summers on the other hand are 25.5deg/80% in July and 26.5deg/75% in August which makes for 19g/m3 absolute humidity, almost twice as humid as Hungary.

Quick google search told me Koreans set their hotboxes to 27~33 degrees depending on the season, assuming it's set to 33 degrees in the summer months, 19g/m3 at 33 deg lowers the relative humidty to 53%. Which is slightly lower than Hungarian weather but not by much.

This is why I think it might be OK not to store your hornbow in a heatbox if you don't live somewhere as humid as Korea..

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

Mule wrote:

But that's the thing, you might both be correct (within those two climates).

Average Hungarian summers are 21 degrees Celsius and 60% relative humidty which makes for 11g/m3 absolute humidity.

Average Korean summers on the other hand are 25.5deg/80% in July and 26.5deg/75% in August which makes for 19g/m3 absolute humidity, almost twice as humid as Hungary.

Quick google search told me Koreans set their hotboxes to 27~33 degrees depending on the season, assuming it's set to 33 degrees in the summer months, 19g/m3 at 33 deg lowers the relative humidty to 53%. Which is slightly lower than Hungarian weather but not by much.

This is why I think it might be OK not to store your hornbow in a heatbox if you don't live somewhere as humid as Korea..

It isn't just the humidity.  Koreans also keep their horn bows in heat boxes so the glue and sinew stay soft.

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

Wouldn't the need for the heatbox afterall be the very extreme reflex that the bow has which is unlike any other traditional horn composite?

You'd pretty much have to own a korean horn bow to see why its very necessary for the heatbox if you have trouble believing.

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6 Reply by Mule (edited by Mule 2014-03-10 16:44:15)

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

Turkish bows have almost as much reflex as Korean, and since they have longer siyahs and therefore shorter working area, they have extreme, almost 90 degree, bends in a small area. The stress here has to be crazy but they don't use heatboxes from what I've seen.

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7 Reply by geoarcher (edited by geoarcher 2014-03-11 01:06:02)

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

I'd say they have more like half the amount (at best) compared to one another.  They're significantly different beasts in this regard.  A Korean bow has to be supple enough to be able to brace and remain so and that's why the heat box is so crucial.  Otherwise, a Korean bow will likely revert to this shape:

http://www.hornbow.com/Pyogu600.jpg

This is a far cry from the typical reflexed state of typical Turk bow:

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb472/FrancescoAlessi79/Turk17/All2small.jpg

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8 Reply by Mule (edited by Mule 2014-03-11 01:18:56)

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

You really aren't being fair. That 'typical' Turkish bow you've linked is a war bow, not a flight bow like the typical Korean.

Turkish flight bows are a lot more reflexed, forming a C shape.
http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/images/grayson/islamic/1994-0977-bow.jpg

And like I said, because a longer part of the limb is static recurve/siyah, the working part of the limb is under considerably more stress than on a Korean bow
http://www.traditional-archery.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/turkish.jpg

And while most museum pieces have tips touching, most modern Korean horn bows I've seen aren't anywhere near as recurved as on that photo. They're more like this, with a half-dozen handle lengths space between the nocks.
http://pds14.egloos.com/pds/200903/02/98/a0114898_49abd2c528f41.jpg

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9 Reply by geoarcher (edited by geoarcher 2014-03-11 01:40:23)

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

Mule,

Actually I'm being quite fair, as most do not go to a horn bowyer for a Turkish flight bow.  Hence, most bowyers put enough 'meat' on their Turkish bows which is closer indeed to the war bows.  They also do this because average archer is not going to have the time or patience to go through the normal bracing procedure as that of a Korean bow.  Even this Turkish bow doesn't have a reflex as extreme as the one you show:

http://hunarchery.com/catalog/images/HornBowTurkish44GreenRedGoldUnstrung_n.JPG

or the one all the way to the left here in the museum:

http://www.turkishculture.org/images/page/military/weapons/archery/turkish_traditional_archery_part2/pic2.jpg

The design too makes a difference as well.  Korean bows typically don't have the same type of limb width or mass as a Turkish.  Turkish bows are inherently 'meatier' by nature.  Besides, Lukas' and even Grozer' horn bows are made with more 'meat' to accommodate the modern archer who wants a horn bow but does not want to go through the same you would with something like the Korean bow.

Bottom line: if you don't follow the procedures properly for stringing and maintaining a Korean horn bow, you'll be in for an unpleasant experience.  Also, the reason that Korean bow has that type of shape in your picture is because its been kept properly in a heat box as well as braced properly and used frequently.  They have a mind of their own. Use gives them dynamic stability. That is why when not in use you have to keep them in a hot box and heat when tillering.

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

You're still comparing Korean flight bows to Turkish war bows. The bows Turks used for fighting and for flight archery as a sport were different. Like most other composites, those war bows you're linking were built for heavier armour piercing arrows rather than the flight bows built for speed like the Korean bow.

My problem with all this Korean maintenance is how is it practical? It's doable if you're at a Korean style range and just shooting as a hobby, but how is it even remotely possible, logistically, as a military weapon? It all just seems very strange and peculiar

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

Mule,

It honestly doesn't matter if I'm comparing the flight bows to the war bows.  Its not even what your initial post was about anyway.  Also I'd recommend buying or getting a hold of 'Ottoman Turkish bows' by Adam Karpowicz if you haven't already.  If you have, you really need to pay close attention to what he says on page 36 where he talks about the loss of reflex that can occur over time with use and how it can change the overall shape.  Also on page 37 of his book, he shows an Ottoman flight bow unstrung from Topkapi Palace and its not nearly as reflexed as you are making them out to be.  The one Turkish bow you've shown is actually an example of an old one that has reverted back to its highly reflexed form due to lack of use.

I don't know how new you are to all this or if you understand, but I highly recommend getting Adam's book to help you understand the nature of horn composite bows.  They're completely different beasts then the modern synthetics and can be very different in characteristics from each other based on type.  Even Lucas will tell you that the material of them is alive and has a mind of its own.

For your future reading endeavors:

http://www.ottoman-turkish-bows.com/

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

No, my initial argument was that it's strange Turks don't use heat boxes when they have highly reflexed bows too.

All I'm asking if that if you want to make comparisons, you need to compare like to like. You can't compare highly reflex/recurved Korean museum pieces to the least reflexed Turkish bow I've ever seen, and ignore what the bow looks like drawn, to conclude Turkish bows are under nowhere near as much stress as Korean bows.

To me the short length and therefore high bend of Turkish bow limbs looks like the bow would be at as much stress as a Korean bow which might have more reflex when unstrung but has longer limbs which make for better distribution of the bend. Do you disagree?

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13 Reply by geoarcher (edited by geoarcher 2014-03-11 12:46:46)

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

Mule,

'Like' to 'like' isn't the issue here which you've been trying to make it out as.  Furthermore, no two horn bows are exactly alike.  Please stop and listen to what Thomas says but also get the Karpowicz book.  Horn bows are not something you can just 'hop into'.  And they can't be compared to how synthetic bows behave either.  You need to get educated on them and find the relevant literature that will enlighten you.  I have provided the link to Adam's book.  That is pretty much the bar standard for understanding nearly everything you'll need to on horn bows.  If you buy a hornbow now with the understanding you currently have, you will most likely be in for an unfortunate experience.

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Re: Heatbox necessary outside of Korea?

Mule(you have an appripro name) horn bows are different animals. If you don't want the hassle of a heat box then buy a glass/bamboo composite bow and don't worry about it. If you just have to have a true horn bow, then heed the advice of the experts and stop arguing about it.

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