1 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

geoarcher wrote:

I've had some instances where it would move although I've had it on my Saluki Damascus for a while now and its pretty stable.  Maybe some Ducos cement would help?  But just a little because otherwise it will be too hard and cause calluses.

The serving for a yumi's string (nagajikake) is traditionally made out of hemp fibers and wrapped around the string while wet with glue.  This is done a few times until you get a thick enough surface so when nocking the arrow it stays in place.  Its kinda like how composite bowers work with sinew.  However, the upper part would be bulked up a little more in order to ensure the nock point.  So actually it is more like an extra layer of material around upper part of the nagajikake.  I used knot above to describe it which I realize now was probably the wrong term to use.

Ah ok. Makes sense thanks!

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2 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

geoarcher wrote:
Moose wrote:

Just as reference theyre called fuji quilter silk, sewing thread.

Edit. Tried tying it like the videos above and it just snapped when pulling it through itself.
 
Do not recommend.

Thanks and wow really?  I've never encountered that problem but have had it come off sometimes.  Then again maybe I'm tying too loose?

Moose wrote:

 
I know in kyudo there isnt a nocking point but it is marked, and its reinforced with serving.

There are people who mark their nagajikake (serving) when first learning although if you showed up to a shinsa (exam) and the honchi (top ranking sensei) saw it he would fail you.  So after a while you are just supposed to know where to nock it.

In kyujitsu however, a bulky knot is made toward the top end of your nagajikake and acts as the nocking point much like in Korean archery.  It was and is still done to this very day as kyujistu is the actual martial style of Japanese archery that the Samurai would have practiced.  Having a knot in your nagijikake so you could nock effectively without looking was crucial for when the Samurai shot off horseback.  Kyudo grows out of kyujitsu and falls in the modern era of Budo along with a few other arts that the Samurai initial developed during the initial Budo era.  Kyudo was modified from this tradition by Buddhist  monks so that's why certain things are not kept over from the original Budo era.


Yeah if it comes off its not proper, and or wont keep a consistant point, though idk how important a milimeter or two of movement on a nock is to our type of archery.

Ah thanks! is it just a knot in the string instead of just another string served around it.

I figure lots of cultures wouldve just marked where they wanted the arrow to sit and just knot the string on itself at that point.

Though i dont know what that would do to the dynamics of the string.

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3 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

storm wrote:

To try out other serving materials use your existing string. Count the number of strands first. Then serve an empty area with a material of your choice and test. If too thin, add a couple of extra strands alongside the existing string and serve-again. If too tight, try to estimate how many strands you have to take off.

I used 20 strands of fast flight plus and a single serving with BCY halo (.019" diameter) and it fits perfectly all western carbon plastic nocks.

I have some carbon arrows from Korea and the nock is wider, so the recipe above would not work for them.


For nock point I simply use duct tape above the arrow nock. I cut a 2-3cm wide strip and then wrap it around the string 5 or so times -until it's about 2mm thicker than the serving. I do this because I tend to put pressure on the string with the index finger. This also helps in blind nocking because I nock low, then lock the finger below the nock, then push the nock up until it reaches the nocking point.

Yeah i do the same thing. Nock low and slide up, as well put pressure on the string with the index finger its cause a callus on my index finger which is why i recently picked up a knuckle protector from freddie archery, just shaped it to my hand, planning on using it this weekend. Still a few issues but ill work through them.
 
I would use tape but i have an issue with making things look neat and aesthetically pleasing and having tape on my bow would drive me crazy.

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4 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

ragnar wrote:

Leather works for me, too.
But Alibow's "painless thumbring" just kicks the arrows off.

Does anybody know where nockpoints had been made historically (if at all) ? Above ? Below ?
I see some youtube guys shooting without one, usually on very short distances.
And I suppose a nocking point is really helpful when blindly nocking on at full gallop.

Found this discussion on reddit a while ago.

There is this site, called http://www.archerylibrary.com/ that hosts a few books about archery. I've gone through a few of the older ones to check, but wasn't able to find anything. That is, until I happened upon "The English Bowman" (from 1801), and more specifically, this page (and more specifically, the second paragraph)  https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/en … l/125.html  Note that it talks specifically about wrapping the string. At the bottom end of that paragraph, the author notes that when the string is succifienctly streched, nocking points should be put on either side of the arrow.

While "The English Bowman" does mention it, "The Art of Archerie" does not. This chapter https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/ar … ter06.html goes into detail about the string, and mentions wrapping the string, but does not mention any nocking points.


 2 points 2 years ago 

Thing is, that there are almost not strings intact left that are older than 200 years.

http://i.imgur.com/jUBQviE.jpg is a pic from a few years back, an ottoman bow from the 2nd half of the 16th century with it's silk string still on, hence it's so badly twisted. It's not exactly visible if the serving marks the nocking point, but it could be. Silk strings like these need serving in certain intervalls, because they tend to tangle up really badly. Bede Dwyer told me that a silk thread was used to mark the nocking point in these bows much later, in the 19th cent.

The Cagaan Chaad bow http://i.imgur.com/TzHXDHU.jpg from the 13th century doesn't have a nocking point


Id like to point out that serving has been used a lot in history and it could be that it was wrapped multiple times at the nocking point.
 
I know in kyudo there isnt a nocking point but it is marked, and its reinforced with serving.

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5 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

geoarcher wrote:
Moose wrote:

https://youtu.be/6fOCDJ5Cf50

Similar but you dont feed the string through a loop.

Out of curiosity what kind of string do you use for your serving and nocking point?


Oh I see.  Yeah that could get a little bulkier than needed for comfort sake.  I use this product meant for fletching but seems to work relatively well for establishing a nock point also:

https://www.3riversarchery.com/pure-silk-thread.html

It may not be that appropriate as I've never investigated this stuff further.  I just happened to have it lying around from the days when I used to make my own arrows and wrap them with threading.  If you follow the man's method exactly, it should stay on fairly well even without a dab of say Ducos Cement.

Just as reference theyre called fuji quilter silk, sewing thread.

Edit. Tried tying it like the videos above and it just snapped when pulling it through itself.
 
Do not recommend.

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6 Reply by Moose

(2 replies, posted in Thumb Rings)

Armin of malta archery just did a video of it if youd like to see it in action.
https://youtu.be/iaF0wAAnmL4

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7 Reply by Moose

(17 replies, posted in Arrows)

After a couple months with them, im quite surprized.

Although the fletching quality isnt that great the carbon shafts work fine. Ive flung 33" 400 spine arrows off a 40lb bow with no problems.

As i stated the fletching wrapping and general put together of the arrow isnt great.

That said I asked if I could buy uncut shafts and the reply i got was "If you wish to have the bamboo pattern carbon shafts, it will start at $28 for 6 shafts" And at $4.60 a shaft I have no complaints.

Now I just need to find good feathers that I like!

ragnar wrote:

And I planned to order arrows from Alibow with the next order ...
I could get shafts (bamboo and carbon) for about the same price her as a complete arrow from Alibow, but your reports about the quality make make me think.
BTW, I know at least one source of >33" carbon shafts - look here : https://www.nijora.de/carbonschaefte/to … ng-36-inch
It seems there is no english version of the website, though.
The shafts have a fairly good reputation here (Europe), and the owner is a quite successful archer himself.
I have no personal experience with his shafts, but for 34+ inches, there are not many alternatives.

Awesome thanks. The main reason I went with the alibow ones is because of the pattern. Trying to keep the authentic look but abide by club rules.

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8 Topic by Moose

(5 replies, posted in Accessories)

Ive been looking for a glove for a while, started asking around.

Apperantly freddie archery has them but theyre not posted on the website. $25 usd.

These are the gloves you wear to protect your draw hand from string friction.

Alternatively, bluelake supplied me with this http://blog.daum.net/sungesan/8557021 if you wanted to make your own.

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9 Reply by Moose

(3 replies, posted in Accessories)

Ive looked for hard cases, couldnt find anything. Id grab 2 or 3 shipping tubes but them side by side and cut slits so the limbs can slip in. Then tape the tubes together with about $50 worth of duct tape and pray to god its still good when you land.

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10 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

geoarcher wrote:
Moose wrote:

I tried the korean method of this but i suck and the nocking point came undone. Ill give this method a try.

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

No problem.  What exactly is the Korean method?

https://youtu.be/6fOCDJ5Cf50

Similar but you dont feed the string through a loop.

Out of curiosity what kind of string do you use for your serving and nocking point?

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11 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

geoarcher wrote:

I follow this method for creating a nock point on the string:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXZYx1O … 0&t=0s

I had the same problem, and if you follow this man's video exactly you will have a nock point that is not too bulky but with just enough width to nock appropriately and comfortably.

I tried the korean method of this but i suck and the nocking point came undone. Ill give this method a try.

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

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12 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

Pedro C wrote:

also, I think master Heon Ku Kim does a little bit of a "fixed crawl", allowing some space between the thumb ring and the nock, about one arrow diameter's distance? I'm not sure of how common this is. Might help with the bulky nockpoint discomfort

I've seen this, ive given it a try, the issue is that my index finger that pushes my arrow into the bow doesnt keep enough force to hold the arrow onto the bow.

Ill give moving my hand down a bit more another shot. Might help with another issue im having.

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13 Reply by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

ragnar wrote:

I have a similar nocking point, but above.
In other words, I nock the arrow below the nocking points.
That allows me to put the arrow somewhere at the string (close below, to be more precise), push it up against the nocking point, and only then pull it fully on the string.
Advantage is, you can do it blindly, i.e. looking at the target, not the bow.

Yeah thats what I had, however i think i mde it too bulky, and now it catches on the tip of my thumb after release.
 
This is completely my fault and am trying to fix my release. What I believe is happening is that im just relaxing my hand to release with too much of a hook. Then the bulky knocking point runs up my ring and catches the tip of my finger.

When I get a clean release my accuracy at 18m is quite good, im almost even able to keep up with the scores at my club which has surprised me. But when it catches my thumb it starts to hurt and then go numb which just affects my accuracy.
 
Ive tried fixing this issue with repetition but its hard to do when it hurts. Haha.


Pedro C wrote:

An endless string is probably best to start with. Are you using the wide Korean type nocks? where'd you get your arrows? either way, ideally I'd just go with a thick enough serving to fit without double serving, from the middle of the string up about 6"/15cm. The tricky thing is knowing how many strands of material, and what thickness of serving material is needed for a good fit

It may be easier to just modify your current string or buy a string for that bow, and double serve for at least about 3" so the nocks fit, if needed. Then tightly tie a nock point that sits atop the nock like ragnar says.
Should be more durable with dyneema/spectra braided material. or could use a brass one if you have the tools

Im using the standard north american knocks on alibow carbons at 33." i need to buy new shafts at 300 i think as these are very bendy at that length.

Ill give those materials a try. I had a brass one on my youthbow while I waited for my SMG & YMG to come in the mail. If I wasnt insane that knock would've stopped me from continuing as I had the same issue except instead of a string knock it was a metal knock catching my thumb.

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14 Topic by Moose

(23 replies, posted in Bows)

Hey guys,
 
Im getting a bit bored of the string on my bow so im looking to swap it up, does anyone know the serving and end loop string used on ymg bows?
 
Also ive been tieing a single knocking point, but ive found the bulky knocking point hits the end of my thumb and has caused a callus, ive tried fixing my release over the past month but no matter what i hit it. Regardless,  because of this im looking to swap to a korean style of nocking point but i dont know what kind of string I should use for that.

Any help would be greatful, thanks!

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15 Reply by Moose

(17 replies, posted in Arrows)

geoarcher wrote:

Ha, I initially thought you wanted them to resolve an arrow length issue.  That's actually what drew me to them initially.  Though I think they look kinda cool too especially their more rounded cut fletching. 

Yeah that threading job they do at the fletching ends is abysmal.  Probably the worst you'll find among a professional arrow maker. 

Sadly enough, after buying an Alibow, but also seeing some others people ended up with, I trust their arrows more than their bows.

That was the issue, what lead me to alibow arrows is the fact that they're carbon and look like bamboo, however i'm sure i could use 33 inch uncut goldtip with longer points and scour online for longer nocks to get somewhere around 33 1/2".

I'm sorry to hear that, mine actually don't have the back end of the fletching wrapped, but yeah i don't think they're anything more than aesthetic, they're still using an adhesive overtop of it and then have still also glued the fletching down so you really feel this hard knob underneath this sand papery threading, its quite silly. That said I've been shooting with my nocking point about 2/3 an inch below it should be and have punished my hands because of it.

We will see how these arrows do with my 40 lb smg, if they do alright I wouldn't mind sticking with them, just want to only buy shafts off of them, and if I can get them long enough for some of the kyudo club members then i could probably buy them in bulk for cheap. I think 95cm is enough for some of the smaller people, but I have no clue about Kyudo.

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16 Reply by Moose

(17 replies, posted in Arrows)

ragnar wrote:

In my club, wood arrows are also not allowed for FITA targets. If anyone cares is another question ...
For the 3D training area, wood and bamboo are certainly allowed.
And for 3D competitions, carbon arrows are not allowed for the primitive/horse/longbow classes, i.e. wood or bamboo are mandatory.

People care here. My club is poor as hell so they're pretty strict on making sure equipment stays in tact for as long as possible.



Anyways, after a month I finally got my arrows. Shipping put them up from $60 CAD arrows to $100 CAD arrows. I'll post some high quality pictures later as I'm sure someone somewhere at sometime will be curious about them.

My first impressions, they look gorgeous, the designs are painted on, the carbon definitely feels cheaper than my gold tips. The arrow heads on these are a weird shape that makes it quite hard to pull them out of a standard target, but thankfully they're threaded the same as every other standard arrow head you can buy in north america, so swapping them out is very easy.

The nocks are not glued in at all, all are just pressure fit inside, says the inner diameter is 6.2mm. I highly suggest swapping the nocks out as they're cheap and have very sharp mold lines left..

As GeoArcher said the threading on top of the fletching is kind of bulky. Ontop of that some of them are quite lazily put on the bow. It also seems they put a layer of glue overtop of it which makes whatever material they used very rough. The ends of the fletchings are very hard due to the glue they used on the edges and cut clean through a thin leather glove, and chewed up the leather guard on my hwarang i believe they used too much glue going up the fletching instead of using it just on the tip and then protecting that tip with the string wrapping they use. Seems like they could definitely do better there.

Aesthetically they are very pleasing though. I'll be wet sanding their logos and arrow specs off as well as fixing the fletching by shaving the ends down a bit and then redoing the string with some green, blue, or red silk thread with the purpose of cleaning up the transition from the shaft to fletching, as well as changing the tip and nocks. Also as much as I like the way the fletching looks, nocking and drawing starts to pose a problem because the fletching reaches all the way past the bow due to the korean low brace height. I'll probably be rectifying this when I fix everything else.

Next time I'll probably just see if I can buy the shafts alone if they'd be willing to sell me them at a discounted price if i buy them in bulk.

Again it took me a month to get them, overall not too impressed with quality, but that is kind of what I expected. As I stated elsewhere, I just really like the aesthetic.

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17 Reply by Moose

(7 replies, posted in Technique)

Krebal18 wrote:

I've done this on short distance (under 10m), shooting around a tree and hitting the target behind it. I used underspined crappy fibreglass arrows with plastic vanes and pushed them in towards the bow so that they were bent/deflected an inch or so upon release. (I also torqued the bow string but I'm not sure it's necessary, I did it it mostly because it felt cool)
The arrow then snaked widely and therefore curved around the tree.
Lars Andersen also shows this (on short distance) in this video: https://youtu.be/M-bI3n_rSBg, not sure excactly how he does it, but it's also a short distance so I'm guessing underspined arrows, not overly fletched, and intentional bad release?

I've had some arrows (fletched) fly a slightly horisontally curved path on distances around 15-20m, but not on purpose. Unfletched arrows (when bareshaft tuning) can take a really steep turn after 15-20m.

So I'm thinking curving arrows at slightly longer distances should be possible.

https://youtu.be/MwkWYCtv_54

Here is how you do it. It can be done with any arrow.

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18 Reply by Moose

(17 replies, posted in Arrows)

CTR wrote:

Natural arrows banned at your club? SAVAGES! tongue

I've seen several people who run in Manchu circles who have purchased them because, if you can't make your own arrows, there are precious few ready-made options for Manchu bows. None appear to be ecstatic nor feel like they were ripped off. If you wanted more information, that'd be where I'd go to ask if I were you.

Hope that helps.

Apperantly a lot of bamboo arrows from kyudo were splintering or something into the targets, so they banned them.

Thanks for your help. I think ill take the risk on the alibow ones!

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19 Reply by Moose

(17 replies, posted in Arrows)

CTR wrote:

Perhaps we sort of missed the most important question which is: what is your application, or what drew you to the alibow arrows? Last I looked at them they were neither cheap enough to be considered cheap arrows (60$ a dozen) nor expensive enough to pass for "good arrows." As a result I passed them over. What interests you about them matters though, as it'll affect what/why they would or wouldn't be a good purchase if that makes sense.

Honestly its the aesthetic, i like the fletchlings ive seen and since wood/bamboo arrows are banned at my club. So having arrows that are proper length, and look authentic with the bamboo design is appealing.
 
I shoot gold tip 400s which run quite a bit more. I think i spent $120 cad for 6? As you said these arrows are not cheap or expensive, so it has me a bit weary. Thats why im looking to see if anyones shot them. Seems no one is willing to take a risk on them though haha.

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20 Reply by Moose

(17 replies, posted in Arrows)

geoarcher wrote:

Yeah I hear you about over-drawing....

To answer your questions:

-I think you could get the threading off.

-Not really...problem of overdrawing persists in Kyudo as well but you can buy aluminum Kyudo arrows from Sambu-Kyuguten up to 110 cm at a set of 6 for like 120 USD.  But that's not including shipping.  Also you'd have to modify the nocks for a Korean bow.  And the funny thing there is all they are are Easton aluminum shafts but Easton will only sell them to the Japanese arrow makers at 110cm since they buy them in bulk.  Not sure if the rest of us could even get Easton to sell to us individually in bulk.  Someone in my dojo is looking into that but I don't know how that is going.  You could always get a hold of Easton yourself but be prepared to buy in bulk which could be like 500 shafts for all I know.  I went through this awhile ago myself and gave up but this is the only other path I know of to address the issue.

-l didn't have them made for my Korean bow which is of a much higher draw weight and since that bow is so powerful and the Alibow arrows so weak I have declined to shoot them that way.

Hm i might give them a shot. I shoot indoors with a fairly light bow. I dont really want to shoot aluminum shafts, theres a kyudo club here, ill go and see what theyre shooting maybe ill find out more for you.

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21 Reply by Moose

(17 replies, posted in Arrows)

geoarcher wrote:

Yes but only the carbons. 

And they're ok for what they are.  You can get them at just about any length which is nice.  I'm not sure if its the sturdiest carbon but I've had Korean carbon arrows break at roughly the same rate so I guess if comparing other foreign market carbons they more or less hold up the same structurally.  Maybe a tad less well.  Goldtips are really my fav carbons but they won't make them at any length you desire.

Anyway, biggest point of critique would be the threading at the ends of the fletching.  Its a tad bulky and just not as skillfully done as say what you'd get from other arrow makers who do the same thing.  I don't use them for my Korean bows but have been pleased with how they perform with my AliBow and one of my Mariners.

Thanks, would I be able to take that threading off easily and do it myself? Or is it glued down enough to ruin the fletching?
 
Im currently using uncut goldtips but theyre only come to 33 inches, which i can make work but am underdrawing by about half an inch. I looked for longer tips but theyre also much heavier, might be an option once i start upping my poundage but i think its just better to look for something that will work for me.
 
Also i figured theyd be worse quality wise as, theyre half the price of goldtips.
 
Do you have an alternative longer carbon arrow that I should buy instead of alibow ones? And why dont you use them on your korean bow?

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22 Topic by Moose

(17 replies, posted in Arrows)

Looking to get some carbon alibow arrows, anyone have experience with them before?

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23 Reply by Moose

(4 replies, posted in Technique)

I've figured out a bit as to what the right foot position does bio mechanically, but that still doesn't explain the reasoning behind standing almost diagonally to the target instead of vertically like Olympic archers?

I think you're kind of missing my point though. I know each master & coach will have different preferences but they'll all stay within a similar set of ideologies and methodologies when it come to archery. All of the things you stated are all within the limitations of KTA, whether it be the type of thumb ring, how much you hook your fingers over your thumb, if you apply torque or not etc. I have yet to see a Coach stand vertically to the target and shoot a traditional Korean bow like an Olympic bow whilst they are teaching people how to shoot the TKA style, simply because it wouldn't be TKA.

What I'm looking for are explanations as to why these techniques are even part of the Korean traditional style. They all have mechanical reasons for being and I would like to understand them a bit better. An example is the thumb ring and the thumb draw style, because of the bow size and how far the archer is able to draw the bow back it forces the archer to use a thumb ring because a 3 finger/Mediterranean draw becomes very uncomfortable on the fingers, thus using 1 finger (thumb) wrapped around the string to draw makes perfect sense. The ring comes into play because instead of the weight of the draw being on 3 different fingers it's on just one, so the ring is there to allow the archer comfort whilst drawing heavier bows.
 
As I said, there will always be preferences between each person, but they all conform to some similar methods and ideologies. What I'm attempting to decipher is the reasoning behind some of those ideologies. To me, I want to understand the functions of why we do things instead of just doing them. Knowing why we do things allows us to understand how to make alterations to fix our mistakes.

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24 Topic by Moose

(4 replies, posted in Technique)

Hey there, I've been watching techniques and reading as much as I can about KTA trying to get as accurate information as I can so I'm able to put together a bunch of images and descriptions, which will hopefully help me learn proper methodology and thinking. I know there are other sources out there that attempt to do the same thing, and are much more credible than mine, but I find them lacking in the amount of detail I would like. They teach the techniques but don't dig into that next level of why. Which I personally believe is very important, specially for people with physical disabilities. (This allows them to see the reason behind something and adjust something to compensate.)
 
At the moment all I have is a diagram for (what I believe to be,) proper foot positioning. I would like to know why behind each of the things. Some of them are straight forwards but others are not and I would love some insight as to why things are being done. If something is wrong feel free to inform me.
 
http://i.imgur.com/l0TU7PD.gif
There are a few things I'm not entirely sure about, first is the foot positioning, some of the videos I've looked at about foot positioning is on Christian Haensell's youtube channel where Coach Kim, at Kim, Hyung Tak Archery Training Center in which its clear that the foot is pointing 45° and that the feet do not overlap, as demonstrated in the black line on the diagram. But then in Thomas' book it clearly shows the ball of his right foot (string side) is overlapping with the heel of his left foot (bow side.)
 
Later in the video Coach Kim then explains you should lean forwards when shooting so that the weight is on the balls of your feet. The point of leaning forwards as explained in the video is to increase body stability, I also know that putting the weight on the balls of your feet allows for better natural alignment. So both of those things combined I'm only guessing but could it be that foot vertical position is dependent on the archers center of balance? And adjusting where the feet are positioned should be based on the specific archers body?

Secondly I'm not entirely sure as to why, but why stand like this instead of a more Olympic stance?

Thanks a lot!

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