126

(11 replies, posted in Bows)

As said, the situation here in Europe is somehow confusing.
Remaining stockpiles of Kaya products are obviously sold off. And as usual, the interesting draw weight are out  sad

Comparing pictures in web shops, I noticed a very strong similarity between Nomad bows and White Feather bows. Thus I guess the bowyer is the same. Just what makes up the price difference is not obvious to me.

White Feather is made by HMG (현무궁) in Korea then exported outside Korea by Freddie Archery.

HMG standing for Hyundai Motor Group ?
Would be strange, but Korea is home to many conglomerates.

To add to the confusion - I checked Freddie's website, and the intersection with the European product choice is quite small.
Just the Nomad KTB and the Black Shadow.

127

(11 replies, posted in Bows)

In view of the occasion, I'd like to bring up the topic of Freddie's bows again.

Last days I realized a draw weight increase of 33% (from 30# to 40#) is a but too much for me.
As an excuse, I bought the 40# KTB with a mediterranean shooting style in mind originally.
But 40# is my target, and I plan to do a 5# increment to 35# in the next time.

But which bow ?
Different FreddieArchery products are available here in Europe, and actually they dominate the KTB bow style market here.
The Kaya bows are phased out as I realized now. Only a few draw weights are still available of the KTB and the Windfighter.
A dealer told me so explicitly on request - they are gone soon.

So the "White Feather" line and the "Nomad" line remain.
But what are the differences ?
As an example, the "Carbon Forever" looks almost exactly as the "Nomad KTB", except being about 15..20% cheaper.
The Nomad bow has actual yarn windings at the grip and the string bridges, the Carbon Forever only embossed/colored plastic tape.
Is there a difference in performance or durability ?

In another forum, I found the statement that the Kaya/Nomad KTB performs better than the Windfighter, but the latter is supposedly just a "naked" version of the Kaya KTB.

This leaves me a bit confused.
Can anybody shed some light on this issue ?


Well, and then, there is the Segye from Alibow as an alternative.
But I hesitate because of the hassles with customs, and the peculiar grip.

128

(12 replies, posted in Bows)

But, when strung, the tips have a slight twist. I've heard that SMG does this to accommodate right handed shooters.

I have no SMG bow, so I can't verify that claim.
But if this were true, you should have had the problems from the start, I guess.
I would interpret it as an internal damage in one limb.
This is a common fail mode for "modern" recurve bows.
I would contact SMG.

BTW, I'm shooting left handed as well.

129

(12 replies, posted in Bows)

And if it seems not to twist, check while strung.
And then pull slowly and watch if it starts to twist.

130

(18 replies, posted in Bows)

Thank you for volunteering as beta-tester ...  smile  smile
I've seen the Segye bow on the Alibow Site, and considering it once my thumb draw technique is stable.
The falling-off string bridge is an annoyance, but I remember similar stories about Kaya bows ...

And how about the performance ?
How does it compare to Freddies bows, which are same price range ?

And the grip ... well, I have the same problem with my Quinghai / Kaiyuan bows.
It is a bit small for my taste, and almost round.
But for the Segye - there is one image with an un-wrapped PU foam handle, resembling the normal Korean style.
It is probably too late for your bow, now, but the Alibow people had been very responsive to questions by e-mail, and custom requests "in scope", so to say.
I'm sure it's no problem to order a Segye bow with such a handle, and unwrapped.

131

(2 replies, posted in Bows)

I have a Windfighter (lacquered carbon surface) and a "Carbon Forever" (White Feather) with varnish-soaked textile backing.
Not the surfaces to work on ...
However, the White Feathers bow came with an embossed self-adhesive tape that simulated the threadings at the grip and the string bridges.
It looked ugly, and I have replaced it with real threads, in black and red.

Mid to high end Turkish bows come beautifully decorated ...

As usual, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder ...  ;-)

With that said, I do not know how Korean bows compare to Turkish flight bows.

In theory quite easy.
Take both bows and one arrow, and measure the initial arrow velocity directly after the bow.
This gives you a measure of the bow's efficiencies. The rest is flight ballistics.
When the same arrow leaves the bow at the same angle, the higher the velocity, the greater the distance.

Flight shooting competitions take out the "scientific" approach, inserting individual bows, arrows, technique and shooting angle.
It wouldn't be a competition if it didn't ...  smile

BTW, I reached a maximum of 220m with my 40# Kaya KTB.
Much depends on the arrow, others reached only 170 .. 180m.

133

(10 replies, posted in Bows)

For comparison - the brace height of my Windfighter and my "Forever Carbon" (White Feather, supposedly the same bowyer, FreddieArchery) is 5.7 inches and 5.9 inches, respectively.
I would get the string replaced.

I hardly even watch TV at all these days....

Me neither - I don't even have TV anymore. For that reason.

Steering the conversation back to traditions further east, ...

Curiously, history suggests the Ottomans already practiced flight shooting in this period, with achieved distances significantly beyond 500 yards.
Which seems rather "useless" in the context of war or hunting.

Thanks for the link.
Albeit I know manchuarchery.org, I missed this sub-page.

This was particularly true during the Crusades where Saladin's archers would leave armored Frankish warriors looking like porcupines in the lead up the Battle of Arsuf as Richard I had his army on the march.

I heard about this, too. And one needs to mention that those Frankish warriors were mostly unharmed by this arrows. The many penetration tests (Youtube and TV channels) usually fail to mention the gambeson under the under the steel armor.

Confusing and scattering the enemy forces was surely a main target. Especially the conscripts / non-professional warriors were easy to impress and scare.
I assume the understanding of "long range" was to hit the enemy before his swords, lances and battle axes could reach you.

Another thing that comes to my mind are coincident documentations about English and Mongolean war arrow designs.
For both, the long fletching effectively ensures a fast stabilisation, which in turn would suggest a focus on short-distances.
The documentation about the English design (forgot the URL ...) suggested 15 ... 30 yards.
Seeing the shooting style of ELB enthusiast, I have difficulties to believe anyone was able to consistently hit an apple-sized target at 90 yards with a 160# ELB.
Or a 200# Manchu bow, for that matter ...

137

(10 replies, posted in Bows)

According to http://world-of-archery.com:

The Brace Height is the distance between the deepest point in the Grip and the Bowstring.

Not sure if FreddieArchery/Kaya states a different way.
I usually measure from the deepest point of the handle where the arrow passes. Not that it makes much difference for Kaya bows.

However, 4,75 inches seems too small, about 6 -6,5" would be normal.
Kaya bows come in different sizes, 48", 50" and 53" AFAIK, while the Windfighter is available in 50" only here.
I guess you got a wrong string by mistake. Don't you have a dealer dealer you can ask ?

IMHO the ELB is a military weapon, designed to deliver a certain "punch", while being easy to produce, cheap, and robust and weatherproof. It was mainly the weapon of conscripted Yeomen and farmers, not (or rarely) of highly trained professionals.

In contrast, e.g. Chinese Ming and pre-Ming bows were the weapon of the cavalry, i.e. professionals.
Less trained infantry soldiers had the cheaper crossbow. It requires just a few hours of training to be battle-ready, and the lower efficiency of it's simpler limps can easily be compensated with higher draw weights.
The 50# Windfighter I have is quite a challenge for me, but my 150# crossbow is not.

My two cents, based on limited knowledge.
I know at least of Korean medieval crossbows, and considering the costs of making a gakgung, I assume conditions were similar. Would be nice to hear an expert opinion.

139

(10 replies, posted in Bows)

I would never do so.
Assuming you speak about a Windfighter as well (your revived a quite old thread ...), how much brace height yo have ?

Those traditional bows use to have much less brace height than modern recurves, which might be confusing at the beginning. And yes, that increases the tendency for string slap when shooting mediterranean style ...

Since it was a longer bow I thought it would be way worse.

With my superficial knowledge of Yumis and Japanese archery, I agree.
I would put it in a class with flatbows and ELBs, thus efficiency ought to be compared to this bows - or ?

141

(18 replies, posted in Bows)

To give an update, I now had enough time to familiarize with my weaker training bow(s) from Alibow.
Because they are quite affordable, I ordered two, one 25#@28", another 30#@26".

In hindsight, however, I would perhaps have done differently.
The bows are fine. They look great, and cast the arrows much better than expected. Last week I hit the FITA target with a 600gn arrow on the 25# bow at first try (with a bit of luck ...).

However, both bows have an almost cylindrical round grip. Shooting them the same style as a korean bow (twist and rotation) is almost impossible, at least consistently.

After a time of confusion and trial-and-error,  I settled for tilt style, i.e. applying slight pressure with auricular and ring finger, to tilt the bow forward/downward on release. With a proper back tension, this works on both bows (Quinghai and KTB/White Feather). Working means, arrow flight is straight, and I hit the target (nearly). Coincidentally I use short fletchings (2.5" feathers), so I can see technique and release errors more easily  smile 

Thus, when looking for a new bow (even a temporary training bow), look for the grip shape as well, besides draw weight and draw length ...  roll

After some thinking and correlation, I came to believe that a proper arrow is at least as important as the bow efficiency.
I mean not only weight and drag (diameter & fletching size).
Achieving greatest distances with a heavy arrow, as described, got me thinking.
And then I remembered my amateur rocketry times.
Those rockets usually look like short, fat arrows, but the ballistics are essentially the same, at least after burn-out.
And the magic parameter is the CoG - CoP distance, as it's usually called in rocketry.
CoG is the center of gravity (i.e. the centroid).
And Cop is the Center of Pressure, i.e. the point on the longitudinal axis where the aerodynamic forces equal out.
The CoG must be in front of the CoP, else the projectile is unstable.
CoG and CoP at one point would be meta-stable, i.e. the thing continues to fly on in any orientation you disturb it.
The distance between both points is a kind of "lever" the gravity and drag forces act on the projectile.
The larger the distance, the more stable, but the greater the "pull" of gravity on the tip.
The FOC is similar, but describes the centroid position in relation to the geometrical middle.
You can observe this effect on child "shooting" toys sometimes - if you shoot the fat, lightweight (foamed) projectiles angled upward, they just stop on apogee and drop down like dead. No pointing downward.

To come to the point - for flight shooting, you need a small CoP/CoG distance.
That means, small fletchings (which pull the CoP backward) and small tip weight (which pulls CoG forward).
And those properties seemed to be matched best with this old, heavy carbon arrow of mine.
But you need low wind, and a good technique, as the flight is less stable.

Not coincidentally, the Turkish flight arrows are like that.
Arrow tuning should have the most significant effect for traditionally style (Korean) bows.

Nothing really new, just a recap in more technical terms ...

143

(18 replies, posted in Bows)

Tinny.Tim wrote:
ragnar wrote:

After shooting the bow for a few times, there are very few noticeable differences to the Kaya KTB, both in handling and performance.

Would you care to elaborate?

Basically, the string slap in mediterranean style.

As notes elsewhere, I stopped shooting in thumb draw with such "heavy" bows, because I believe it messes up my immature technique.
I ordered a weaker bow (25#) for that training, which is currently at the customs.

And to elaborate a bit more - the difference is the handle. It is less "bulky" and more round than the Kaya grip I got used to.
I still have the Windfighter (basically a KTB without limb cover), and even with higher draw weight, I experience almost no string slap.
Again, talking about mediterranean only.

To be fair, both bows are not made for mediterranean style, which demands a different grip.
A normal recurve bow is usually held with just the thumb and the index finger, and basically pressed into the grove between both fingers.
The very common pistol grip of recurves is made just for that.

Once I'm proficient with my still-to-arrive weaker bow, I plan to shoot them (White Feather and Windfighter) in the "proper" way.
But not yet now ...

To come back to the original topic - I met a club fellow last weekend, who shoots this arrows.
He told me they hold up quite well, at least compared to other "general purpose" carbon arrows.

What could be an issue - they are quite lightweight. Had read it in the specs, but seeing/feeling is believing.
For higher poundage bows with arrow weight limits above 10gpp, they might kill the bow in the long run.

145

(18 replies, posted in Bows)

oni wrote:
Pedro C wrote:

Sometimes I "randomly" start getting hit in the bow arm... then it stops... .

For me that's when my elbow is pointing at the ground rather than to the side.

Which I assume has a lot to do with the shape of the grip.
I had been shooting about 90 minutes yesterday with my Windfighter, and he hit me only 3 or 4 times.
Had been a bit sloppy then...
(Again, only talking Mediterranean style here.)

That seems to be a good idea.
The 60# Kassai I sold recently was an even more extreme example. I could shoot it properly only after at least 6 week of intensified training (I'm about 5'8", and 120 lb).
According to medical recommendation I read, one should intensify draw weights slowly (over month, rather than weeks), else tendons and cartilage gets damaged, and might need years to fully recover.
Supposedly, excavated remains of English archers that died in medieval battles at young age support this point ...

147

(18 replies, posted in Bows)

After shooting the bow for a few times, there are very few noticeable differences to the Kaya KTB, both in handling and performance.
Exceptions are  the grip and the distinctively less durable arrow protection.

Didn't know the 2315 GG's were still available.

Not quite sure about the 2315 variant, but I could order Camo-colored Gamegetters here. Still having enough 2219 old tend poles laying around, and have no use for them.
I use my Jazz arrows in the 3D parcours, with a 30# recurve. And they hold up much better than equally priced carbons. Quite fine for the 3D distances below and up to 50 yards. But indestructible they are surely not ...

It's quite a learning process isn't it ?  Good luck with it all.  I hope you enjoy your Alibow.  I bought a fibre glass one, the Qinghai model 37# @28" /  50# @ 33". Really hated it compared to laminated bows.  Not so much hand shock but whole body shock  lol
Different design with heavier siyahs & draw weight than the one you ordered so yours should shoot quite differently.

I'm quite aware the a fiberglass bow is not really "high quality", and prone to hand shock. Sold an old Kassai bear 60# this week (fiberglass as well), which I never really managed to master.
I don't expect too much "kickback" from a 25# bow, who is sought as a temporary step stone. Just need to do the 10.000 (or so) shots with a bow easy enough to handle, to automate the thumb draw technique.
As an additional pro, it's easy to stay above 10gpp with such a bow. The lighter the arrows, the more the bows are kicking in my experience.

As mentioned before here (or in another thread ?), my target is 40..45# at full draw. I think about to accompany my Kaya/WhiteFeather bow with a longer model, like one from Alibow. If so, it ain't gonna be a fiberglass model.

In reverse order:

What Alibow one are you getting? Segye? That's my practice bow for now. I padded the grip with paper and leather because it came too small.

No, a Ming Kaiyuan (fiberglass variant), with 25# at 28".
Rationale is, it's mainly for technique training. The draw weight is not an challenge for me, to say the least.
In mediterranean style, I have 40/45#, and 30# during  more quiet winter month.
I consider a bow like the Segye once I'm proficient with thumb draw, but not yet.
Unfortunately, Alibow has too many nice looking bows ...

With torque, you can shoot the stiffest arrows you want. But I personally want to shoot without it, or with a very minimal amount maybe.

I have read this, and actually realized it as well.
Tried a few arrows in thumb draw again yesterday, with my 40# white feather bow.
Arrows were Eastons 500, 30.5" Powerflight, and older XCP 420, 32"arrows.
Both flew quite nice, I noticed no difference.
Switched then to mediterranean, and the stiffer XCP didn't work, they were fishtailing like crazy.

Get calipers and consider https://www.customthumbrings.com - the spur ring seems nice...

I have a brass model of Alibow's "painless" model ordered, it should arrive with the bow.
According my measurements it is a bit tight, but files/sandpaper are ready.
The best leather model I currently have is cut from a heavy leather work glove.
But either the string is "cutting through" (at least after 20..30 shots), or it is to stiff and I can't bend the thumb properly.

oni wrote:

If I wanted to keep it inexpensive I would try the 500's I already have.  They may work fine.
I started thumbring, many moons ago, shooting a 30# solid glass Hoyt longbow with 34" 2315 (340) Easton game getters.  The camo ones if anyone remembers them .
Kicked some if I held it too tight &  shot hard to the right but I learnt to be accurat-ish with it  wink

Some people I know call those arrows "tend poles" ...
I guess it was just for training. Could you reach the "Korean target distance" of 145 meters with this combination ?
And BTW, they are still available. I used the cheaper Jazz arrows in 3D parcours, and they are much more robust than Carbon shafts.

For your proposal, this might work well.
I just need to check if they are long enough. Said Easton Powerflight have a maximal length of 30,5" for the 500.
Mentioned "Maxima Carbon" arrows are available up to 33".
Actually, I'm not quite sure what my draw length with thumb draw is.
The relatively high draw weight and the sub-optimal thumb ring keep me from shooting properly.
Hope the 25# Alibow model arrives soon.