101

(2 replies, posted in Technique)

Trial 2

With Khatra        Without Khatra
192                    192
189                    177
194                    183
176                    184
189                    171
179                    167
177                    174
183                    180
192                    185
196                    190
198                    197
201                    197                   
199                    199
195                    196
195                    193

102

(2 replies, posted in Technique)

I've decided to post the results of a khatra speed test I did a while ago here.  It was a bit of work and feel the results should be published for prosperity sake.  I'm posting here rather than say ATARN's old forum or FB site because its somewhat of an overheated discussion there regarding what if any effects this technique has on the flight of the arrow.  So this site being more on the lo-key side these days is really the perfect place to share I feel.  Also, pardon if this post is a tad out of place here since its not an actual Korean technique, although it is one that is used in certain cultural contexts within the realm of Asiatic archery.  With that said here are a few points of consideration before I reveal the results:

1) Khatra is a term referenced in the book Saracen Archery referring to a very specific technique.  The book is a translation of an ancient Middle Eastern treatsie on archery written during the late 1300s AD by a Mamluk named Taybugha.  The word is derived from Arabic and used by archers within the aforementioned cultural context and time.  It should not be confused with Japanese yugaity/yugari found in Kyudo or the torque technique used in Korean traditional archery.

2) Khatra as a technique is described as a forward and downward motion of the bow emanating from the wrist.  The purpose according to Taybugha is to improve the speed of the arrow.

3) Some people who have studied this technique over the years feel that it should be only used with bows that have a bulbous grip like Ottoman or Crimean Tatar bows have since bows like that would have theoretically been used during the time Saracen Archery was written.

4) None of the bows used in this test of khatra's purpose have a perfectly bulbous grip.  The closest I have in my collection is my Saluki Crimean Tatar and I used that for the first trial.  The second and third trials, I used my Yuan bow by Mariner.

5) The first trial may have many systematic errors since I find the Saluki Crimean Tatar harder to shoot.  The second trial likewise may have a some systematic error as well.  The third trial was tighter in terms of technique consistency and, I believe, removal of all systematic errors that may have been introduced in the previous two trials.  Three's a charm as they say.

6) Given the above, I am not claiming these tests prove khatra effectively does what Taybugha claims.  Its been said that measurements within 3 fps could be well within in standard margin of error.  Keep that in mind when looking at the third trial results in particular.  And remember, there may be other errors in the first two trials.  You are free to interpret as you wish or compare with other known tests done in a similar manner.

7) All measurements were taken in feet per second (FPS) and were of course measured via an actual chronograph that I use and have shared results with here before.  All three trials have a total of 15 iterations with and without khatra except the first due to
an oversight.

8) All trials were done with the same carbon goldtip arrow weighing roughly 415 grains with a length of 32 inches and drawn to just about 32 inches.  The Crimean Tatar is rated 65#@30".  The Yuan 50#@32".

9) Fluctuations in numbers may be due to various error introduced by lighting conditions, faulty execution of technique or various other errors introduced.  Just keep that in mind when trying to make sense of things and figuring out what it may all mean.

10) Even if you don't have a bow with a bulbous grip, go ahead and try khatra out if you like.  Its OK I say so. wink

****Results****

Trial 1

With Khatra       Without Khatra
212                   208
217                   214
215                   221
215                   213
209                   209
207                   211
205                   209
222                   202
213                   215
210                   213
210                   210
210                   227
212                   213
205                   205

103

(45 replies, posted in Arrows)

ragnar wrote:

For archers in the US, river cane might be a good alternative.
It is not growing here in Europe.

There's plenty of bamboo in the states.  Its actually easier to find rather than river cane.

104

(0 replies, posted in Bows)

Found this one a long time ago and added it to my youtube feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZBY1r … ;index=101

105

(9 replies, posted in Arrows)

What the picture suggests is that you measure from middle of neck to what appears the area where the base of your fingers meet the palm of your hand, with your arm extended out just like that.  Then add add 3cm.  This will allow the blunted end of the arrow to stick out a bit once you reach your full draw.

For arrow weight, the easiest thing to do is tell the merchant your bow's draw weight, how far you intend to draw it, and the length of your arrow.  Then they can assist you appropriately.

106

(45 replies, posted in Arrows)

Since people on this thread seemed to have problems sourcing proper guidance on how to construct traditional Korean archery equipment, and since this thread had really to do with Korean arrows in the first place, I'm including this link here:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/classic/jookshi.html

I've never gone through all the steps myself but hope to one day.  Trick is always sourcing good bamboo to begin with which is about 60% of the battle.

107

(2 replies, posted in Bows)

I typed in 'White Feathers korean bows' in my duckduckgo search engine and a number of merchants appeared selling them.  From my experience, its not common for every single KTB manufacturer to have a website for their products immediately accessible to westerners.  Even when they do, like SMG had, they don't accept orders directly via the site and you often will need to go through a 'middle man'. 

Therefore, your best bet is to type in the search terms that I provided and ask the merchants you come across about the product.

108

(13 replies, posted in Bows)

Thilo wrote:

My 47" SMG has a brace height of exactly 5.5" with the original string untwisted when I measure to the belly directly above the grip. Meassured to the middle of the grip (as Bluelake suggests) it's less of course.
So is the string usually twisted somewhat?

Yes.  You twist the string until you get the brace height you want out of it.

ShinLa wrote:

YouTube with info on Cheil KTB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxQ1yqK … mp;index=6

Interesting, no site but you can go to the guy in the video and he will be your middle man I'm guessing.  Pass.  Considering that almost everyone in the world now has either a web page, etsy, ebay, or FB account etc. etc.

In other news: its come to my attention that SMG's site has gone away.  hmmmm.....

So the guidance I recieved on the technique from a Korean archer was to twist the handle counterclockwise.  The arrow will then keep a distance from the 'bow body' according to the correspondence I have on the matter.  Actually according to this correspondence, it essentially would ensure a clean pass of the arrow without wrapping around the riser thus improving accuracy.  There is a YouTube video out there demonstrating this too.  Still very different from khatra though as the rotation there is forward to improve speed while here is sideways to improve accuracy if I am reading my correspondence correctly.

ShinLa wrote:

What would be nice is a good discussion on 'torque' techniques from a Korean source (with the actual characters and Korean name for this) and in what context the technique should be used in exactly.   It seems to be, in name, jumbled up with the term 'khatra' these days thanks to the ATARN FB group but also here I noticed a bit.  'Khatra', a term that the Mamluke Taybugha writes of during his time in the 1300s Middle East, is to my understanding, a forward rotational technique and should not be mixed up or associated with the 'torque' that the Koreans use.

Whenever I consciously try to apply khatra or torque my accuracy goes down.  So for now I just hold the bow and release the string.  The relatively low spine arrows I use may be allowing this to work for me.  (600 spine carbon shafts with a 40# bow)

Yes arrows with a spine that suites the bow and how it functions minimizes the need according to those who I've talked to elsewhere who have investigated this matter.  But what was the technique actually called in Korean?  Its totally different too compared to Taybugha's technique (khatra) which is a forward rotation of the bow as described in Saracen Archery.  Khatra's purpose is not to increase accuracy but rather speed and this is actually clearly stated in the translation of Taybugha's words.  So jumbling it with the torque technique used in Korean archery is wrong yet a frequent and common assertion on various Asiatic archery internet forum on social media discussion pages.

Actually, there is even the possibility that the torque's purpose in Korean archery does not actually facilitate an increase in arrow flight accuracy.  In a discussion I had with someone elsewhere, they mentioned how those who practice the technique over in Korea will not include accuracy as the specific reason as to why the do it.  Rather allegedly, its been said they proclaim utilization of torque simply because its 'how they were taught' or even that 'it just works well' but nothing specific about accuracy.

In Kyudo, the reason the bow turns after release ('yugari' or 'yugaieity') is not actually explicitly explained to increase accuracy either.  Rather the exact reason is portrayed as an unknown.

ShinLa wrote:

I worry about the details and nuances lost in translation of technical subjects.

We'll take what we can get...not like anything else is really being discussed heavily here these days so whatever new info that is illuminating to some degree, especially if its Korean archery oriented, is welcomed.

What would be nice is a good discussion on 'torque' techniques from a Korean source (with the actual characters and Korean name for this) and in what context the technique should be used in exactly.   It seems to be, in name, jumbled up with the term 'khatra' these days thanks to the ATARN FB group but also here I noticed a bit.  'Khatra', a term that the Mamluke Taybugha writes of during his time in the 1300s Middle East, is to my understanding, a forward rotational technique and should not be mixed up or associated with the 'torque' that the Koreans use.

Points I found interesting:

1) distinguishes the Joseon era war bar from a typical 'civilian' bow.  The later is essentially the gak-gung that is seen in use today if I understand him correctly.  I was trying to figure out how the two were distinguished from each other a while back.  Would be great to hear more if the two had a parallel development.

2) Cheil KTB.  Never heard of them before but apparently the product is quite good.  Not really in the market for a KTB these days but still good to know what else is out there.

geoarcher wrote:
geoarcher wrote:

******Update******

Bow: Elong Outdoor's NIKA ET-4 Meng Yuan Traditional Bow
Bow Rating: 30#@28"
Actual Draw: 36#@32.5"
Arrow Type: Easton Axis 700s @ 32.5"
Arrow weight: 311 grains
GPP: 8.6
FPS: 163

Energy: 18 ft. lbs.
Efficiency: 0.50

Only a slight increase in efficiency but I gotta say I enjoy this one so much more.  I was able to get a speed of 155 fps even with one of my 416 grain Goldtips.  The numbers for energy and efficiency may not be there but the enjoyment is.  I wonder if they'll make a 40lb version next or if they'll stop here?

So just a heads up on this one, this bow actually broke on me.  And after hardly any use.  They have since stood by their product and sent me a new one.

***Update***

The second 30 pound version they sent broke on me as well.  This time they wouldn't stand by the product.  Not recommending Elong or any of their many ebay rebranding accounts anymore.  Shame.

115

(4 replies, posted in Bows)

goodwynde wrote:

Hello! Thank you for your reply. I am not affiliated with them just an interested buyer in their korean bow and I am just curious because I don't want to end up wasting my money if I will buy a substandard bow.

I also posted this in ATARN facebook group but unfortunately they cannot provide a useful information.  I just tried my luck to post here just in case there is a user of their bow here.

Fair enough, and good luck with that given current events but also other factors....

116

(4 replies, posted in Bows)

Hmmmmm....lots of product recommendations and ranking requests popping up these days here on this forum.  Some of which come off as a tad crypto-spamy dare I say.

You wouldn't happen to be affiliated in any way with the company in question here now would you? big_smile

To answer your question though: No.  And I sincerely doubt anyone else here has.

117

(6 replies, posted in Bows)

Xesigi wrote:

Thanks Geoarcher!

I'll start off with that and get a thumb ring. I'll start looking into making a tonga once I get used to the technique.

Thanks again!

You're welcome and I wish you luck on your journey here into KTA.

118

(6 replies, posted in Bows)

Xesigi wrote:

Yea I thought about a set but the sets are nearing my budget (and don't seem worth it). It comes with a glove and I do have a Japanese thumb draw glove, yugake, but probably wont be the same. I am also not sure if I should use a thumb ring. Plus the arrows included aren't or don't look feathered either. I might have to get everything separate sadly. sad

The Nomad set over at Freddie's site is just 277 USD and comes with arrows that have the synthetic fletching which is standard for Korean carbon arrows.  They are fine to use. 

No, do not use the yugake.  Yes, do use a thumbring.  If you need to use a beginners glove that is typically sold with Korean bow sets in the beginning, that's totally fine.

Xesigi wrote:

Yea I looked around more and it was pretty expensive.

Price should not be your number one deterrent here.  Rather, its what I said.  You'll have to gain mastery of the thumb draw firstly if you are ever to use a tonga.

Besides, you can actually somewhat easily make a tonga yourself by just harvesting a good piece of bamboo and cutting it to the specifications known for this device.  As I have said before to someone here, consult Saracen Archery book for the specs on the tonga.  I  successfully made one doing just that and you can too if you just google search for the text and download it.

119

(6 replies, posted in Bows)

Usually you want to start off with a set (inlcudes bow, case, and maybe some arrows).  Kaya's is usually pretty good for price and quality but I'm not seeing it offered at the moment.  May have dig around though and see if it pops up.

As for the bow kits at Freddie's site, the Nomad looks like a winner to me but I've no experience with it. 

Regarding draw weight, ideally what you'd want to do here is start off with a cheap beginner bow (50 to 90 dollar price range) that is rated at say 20 pounds @ 28 or 31 inches or so.  Obviously, this is not really feasible with Korean made traditional bows since they usually start at 200 dollars.  There used to be a Chinese company that I'd recommend here that made a beginner's bow designed to be utilized with a thumbdraw just like I mentioned at those specs and price but I am not recommending them anymore due to their unreliability in construction and poor customer care.  The bow is dangerous and will break on you.

Word of caution:  I'd hold off on the tonga until you gain balance and stability with the bow.

120

(7 replies, posted in Buy/Sell/Trade)

Yes it is!

121

(1 replies, posted in Technique)

wayfarer wrote:

Would the Korean stance have been different back when military weights where more common? Is the new form method a more recent change?


What I have bolded here is easily more the case.  I know in kyudo, much of what is practiced does not really apply to what the samurai would have done.  So be careful from the get go assuming what you see on youtube.com (or really almost anywhere else concerning the stance currently used) at present day Korean archery ranges regarding form has anything to do with what Joseon, Goguryeo, Silla, Baekje era Korean polities would have expected their archers to do for warfare. 

bluelake would probably know better than anyone else what, if any, ancient Korean warfare manuscripts would have had to say about the matter.  Anything beyond consulting those sources is really just going to be guess work.

122

(45 replies, posted in Arrows)

ragnar wrote:

BTW, the rear section of my tong-ah, where the arrow rests, is 10mm wide (0,39"), the arrows are 5/16" (8mm).

My tong-ah is in another location not immediately accessible.  So I can't take measurements.  Recommend hunting down Saracen Archery as I'm pretty sure there were some specs in the section discussing tong-ah.  That's what I recall using pretty much exclusively to make mine.  You should be able to source that via the query I suggested.

BTW, its long been out of print.

123

(45 replies, posted in Arrows)

ragnar wrote:

Anyway, I'm convinced mine is too narrow...

You need specs here m8.  Have you tried ATARN or even the source I provided?  I don't think Youtube is going to cut here.

124

(45 replies, posted in Arrows)

ragnar wrote:

.
An image of mine, with an arrow. Hope I got the image upload right this time ...
http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/misc … r=1805t886

Nope doesn't work for me m8.

BTW, Saracen Archery I believe gives some dimensions for tong-ah.  There are a few sources that host free download of this text in PDF.  I suggest tracking down the text via google search using term 'saracen archery pdf'.  I believe when I made my tong-ah, I consulted the text for dimensions and it turned out correct/functional.

Also, you'll have to source appropriately sized bamboo which is the hardest part really as only nature can provide that.  Finding the perfect shoot with right length and circumference, plus minor to no imperfections is in many way the hardest part.

125

(45 replies, posted in Arrows)

ragnar wrote:

Second, the "Pyeonjeon" Wikipedia entry contains some gross errors....


Yeah don't waste time with wikipedia here m8.  Tis no reliable ancient engineering manual.  Those who are in the know go to ATARN.  I'd start with the forum first which is still somewhat active.  If you can't find what you are looking for there then go to the FB page and see if anyone will share any notes or diagrams from more reliable first hand research.

Also don't always rely on older research.  Make the equipment as close as possible to reliable specs (as much as possible) and then do your own testing.