1

(7 replies, posted in Technique)

I noticed his arrow was unfletched. That would be one requirement to shooting a curving arrow because a normally fletched arrow spins so any internal  forces in the structure of the arrow or imparted by the shot would be doing 360's around the axis of the arrow. That would probably just cause a slow wobbly arrow. It's really hard to shoot an unfletched arrow straight with a normal release (mongol or mediterranean style) on a non-center shot bow. But it can be done. You would have to twist the bow handle away from the arrow rest and tilt the bow down slightly as you draw and release. If you manage to align the arrow with its flight path during the release it would fly straight. Then if the arrow were made so that it is more flexible to one side than the other and it rotates slowly once in flight it might take a curved path. But I can't imagine a shooter being able to control that so I would vote no. Not possible. I saw the movie. Twisting the string only presses the arrow against the bow harder as you draw. Actually a bit useful on horseback.

2

(16 replies, posted in Bows)

joomong wrote:
Mule wrote:

The strings that come with the bows are very thick and don't fit 'regular' arrow nocks, you'll either have to buy korean arrows (SMG sells decent enough carbon ones for $10 and you won't have to worry about arrow spine) or try to widen arrow nocks or get a new thinner string.

Thank you!!

Mule is correct about the  problematic thickness of the string but it is really due to the double serving not the strand thickness. Just remove the serving and re-serve yourself (or have a archery shop do it) with a single serving. That worked well for me. see http://tonygt19.smugmug.com/Archery/Dyn … ;k=Mxvx7cC
Cheers,
Tony

Ann,
I couldn't hit anything with a korean bow and thumb ring draw until I tried this method shown by Justin Ma on Youtube. Essentially you empirically find where the arrow goes as you used incrementally longer draw lengths. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzhA0AsNx6U
iCooper,
When you draw the bow normally you flex the limbs only in the Z axis forward and back . A simple release sends the arrow nock in that one direction. When you twist the bow grip as you draw you slightly twist the limbs sideways. On release that sends the nock a fraction of an inch to the right on the X axis before the nock leaves the string. That's a second dimension of travel which will align the arrow with its direction of flight. When you tilt the bow forward in the grip and release that raises the nock slightly before it leaves the string. That's a third dimension of travel that lifts the feathers off your thumb knuckle as the arrow clears the bow. If done correctly it feels as if you're flinging the arrow from the bow without it touching bow or thumb as it leaves. If you work very very hard at this you should be able to do it consistently in about 10 years. I certainly can't yet.

For my part I agree strongly with Storm on this point. I push the bow to tilt it forward from the top and also grip the bow almost from the side as the Japanese Yumi archers do. When done correctly with a smooth release the effect is almost magical. The arrow rest is the air. Slightly above your thumb and slightly to the right of the bow (for a right handed thumb ring archer). If done perfectly the twisting torsion on the bow will make the string will align itself to the flight path of the arrow and an arrow of any spine will fly straight out of your bow. Sounds simple but this is the most complex thing in archery. No one can tell you how much to twist or how much to tilt . You have to determine that yourself empirically. It can take years. You have one of only two types of bows that I know of that can be drawn and flexed in 3 dimensions to make the perfect shot. The Japanese Yumi is one and the Korean traditional bow is the other. If you pursue this, once it happens you will be hooked but you may have to shoot a thousand times before it happens again. It is that elusive but your accuracy at short distances will improve remarkably.

5

(1 replies, posted in Thumb Rings)

The actor in that movie is using a sugakji. if you search that term in this forum you'll get discussion and images.

6

(9 replies, posted in Thumb Rings)

misterwonky wrote:

So I've made 6 billiard ball thumbrings now, and a few of them are pretty good, some look amazing, but most are terrible.  The pain is on the inside of my thumb right at the joint (where the ring is pressing).  At first I thought the weight wasn't being distributed correctly, and made it more contoured which helped, but still painful.  Then I tried to make a wider band so it didn't have as much "play", but looking at other thumbrings that are production or antiques, it seems they didn't use extremely wide bands.

This leaves me to question what the problem is, and thought that you guys may have ran into this before.  Here's the latest ring, and it seems to fit perfectly until I pull the string.....which causes significant pain.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1Cr9lbJxb3g/UmMbB3xaisI/AAAAAAAAANQ/oz4ejLOSxH4/w440-h330-p/IMAG0186.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wJPif_nmdR8/UmMbDx8gCpI/AAAAAAAAANY/IcuDlqZ7SbA/w440-h330-p/IMAG0187.jpg

This ring is slightly too large, and can slip off of my thumb with enough work, but is only a millimeter too large I think.  Thanks in advance for any info!

From the photo you embedded it looks like you made a beautiful thumb ring but you designed it to function incorrectly. If you are positioning the string between the black ridge and the lighter tab on the ring you will be putting all the draw pressure on the last thumb bone. So the pressure is mostly applied to your thumb print area. That would be extremely painful even with a moderately heavy draw weight. The thumb ring is designed with an oval opening so that it can be slipped over the oval shaped end of the first thumb bone (the one attached to your hand). But when twisted 90 degrees into its functional position it cannot be pulled off without crushing the flange of the bone. That would take well over a hundred pounds of pull even for dainty bones. Nearly all the pressure from drawing the bowstring should be on the 2 red areas which are shown in the photoshopped x-ray I attached. If you pinch those two areas with your other hand and pull as hard as you can you will feel no discomfort. That's more or less the way a correctly fitted thumb ring should feel. This works best when the string is pulled by the upper lip of the ring and slightly above the joint. I pull a 70lb at 28" Hwarang well past 85lbs with no thumb discomfort. Bending your thumb and holding it with your index finger is really only to lock to draw. If your thumb ring can come off at all in its shooting position none of this works. Hope this helps.

7

(3 replies, posted in Bows)

1187shooter wrote:

Wow, I was expecting light, but this thing is scary. I'm afraid I'll break it by looking at it wrong...
Compared to my old Browning 50# Recurve it is a toothpick.
Can't wait to get it home to try it out!
Pics coming as soon as I get off work...

1187shooter,
That Samick Mind50 looks and feels dainty but it's not. It's a very tough little bow. It's also pretty fast. It's a favorite practice bow for many horse archers. The one you got came with a Dacron B-50 bowstring. Not the fastest of strings. I think this bow could probably handle a fastflight string easily to squeeze out a bit more speed.
Hope you enjoy the bow.
Cheers,
Tony

Chadwck,
1187shooter's comment is correct. The rigid siyah acts as a lever allowing the archer to pull a short powerful limb into a relatively compact bend which can snap back very quickly compared to a longer true recurve limb which bends along its entire length. For this effect to be maximized the siyah has to be very light but unbending itself.
I might add that siyahs can have more than one stage. I'm attaching a photo of my 70lb  turkish hybrid with the limb sections marked. The bending part of the limb is marked to one side with blue. The siyah is the same length but in two stages marked in green and red. The siyah in Novotny's hybrids is made stiff by inserting and gluing  (very precisely) a stiff curved wedge of maple between the two layers of bamboo. This siyah is designed to act in two stages. The green length is already engaged as a lever when the bow is braced. So it helps you bend  the curved part of the limb (which is as powerful as a crossbow limb) as soon as you begin the draw. The red part of the siyah is not engaged until later in the draw when its part of the bowstring lifts off the flared shoulder (red arrow). Then your lever becomes 50% longer and pulling further becomes  easier and smoother than it would be without this feature.

1187shooter wrote:

Is this bow still available?

Yes, it is still available.

10

(7 replies, posted in Bows)

Selected dried croaker (a type of fish)  air bladders are boiled down into glue. Very tough and flexible. For all the answers to questions like this you should get Bluelake's "Way of the Bow: The Korean Hornbow" DVD. It is the most complete video of hornbow making ever made.

11

(0 replies, posted in Buy/Sell/Trade)

This is a very lightly used bow. 30 lbs at 28 in draw. Sale price is $370 firm. Comes with carrying case, extra string, and silk bow sock. Payment by paypal , Shipping extra via UPS from southern Pennsylvania. Contact me via forum PM or by email for more info.

Note: This bow has been sold and shipped

12

(8 replies, posted in Bows)

<Ah, I've just seen the 70 lb that you'd posted before, and I have to say, it's a rather beautiful looking bow! How much were you thinking of selling it for? My only concern would be the shipping, as I live in the UK! (And customs- we have some very peculiar customs laws here, regarding weapons and such...)>

Katharine,
I'll be putting the 30 Lb Hwarang up for sale at $370. It sells new for $470. That includes a soft case, silk bow sock and extra string. If you send me your thumb size (width of middle knuckle in mm) I might have a thumbring I can send. I'll have some photos of it up sometime this weekend in the for sale section. You can see it's look alike Hwarangs in 45lb and 70lb on my photosite by googling my forum name and "traditional archery". This bow will challenge you for years. It is very smooth at 30lbs to 28 in but just as smooth up to mid 40 lbs at 32 in (thumbring draw range). Exceptionally lively response to advanced gripping methods but this takes years of practice. See forum member "Storm"'s posts on this. This bow acts more like a true hornbow than my other heavier hwarangs. I think that's due to the limitations of modern materials in flexibility as bow weights progress past 50-70lbs.

13

(8 replies, posted in Bows)

Katherine,
I can, with some bias, recommend a 30 lb at 28 inch draw hwarang bow I will be photographing and putting up for sale soon in the for sale section of this forum. It is a YMG in like new condition. The YMG's are rocks. I've never heard of anyone complaining of failures in this line of bows. Let me know if you are interested. It looks exactly like the 70 lb bow which I offered for sale briefly in the for sale section of this forum but decided I liked shooting it too much. The limbs are just a bit thinner front to back.

Note:
This bow is no longer for sale.

This is a hunt and horsebow capable true recurve (no siyahs). Its short limbs are perfect for hunting and carrying on horseback. The bow is surprizingly powerful and well built for the price. I'm offering this for $145. I bought it from Lancaster Trad tech for $205 last year in the store. It is a great starter bow for men.

Note: This bow has been sold and shipped

WarBow wrote:

Tony,

Are you shooting 9 9 grains/lb?

With the heavier draw bow the arrows come out to 6.6 gns/lb. They aren't flying very straight in the first 20 yards so better tuned arrows should go significantly faster.

17

(14 replies, posted in Bows)

WarBow wrote:

The Saluki's draw-force curve probably raises steeper initially compared to the YMG.  What's the maximum draw length of the Hybrid Turk?  YMG is around 33".

The same, 33" I believe it is pulling about 5-7 lbs less than the Hwarang at that point. If you look closely at the Saluki profie you'll see that the siyah is very long and has two stages of engagement. The first part , nearest the grip, is already engaged as a lever at the brace. That part is hard to pull. When the string lifts away from the second part of the siyah nearest the tip you suddenly have twice as long a lever acting on the very short strong bending part of the limb. The increase in draw weight per length is decreased resulting in an easier finish. So arrow acceleration after the release gets stacked toward the front resulting in a very fast bow.

Chadwck wrote:

I can shoot my 65lb recurve all day so it would just be a matter of getting used to shooting the weight with a thumb draw. My wife on the other hand says no go. I tried to convince her that she could shoot my KTB but she still said no.

You seem to have quite a collection of bows.

Chad

Your wife is right. This is definitely a luxury item. No one needs a bow that can blow the dust off an elephants ears at fifty yards. We guys just like saying we have one. For my part I'm intrigued with mechanical performance. I've collected bows of ancient design in the 45 and 70 lb range just to test how good they actually are. I'm so annoyed at reading that a bow is "blazing fast" in a test report or that it "launches an arrow with authority". What the hell does that mean? So I got myself a chronograph to make actual measurements. But the Salukis took 18 months to show up. Now we're in the gov "sequester" ( I'm a federal employee) and I ran into some unexpected medical bills. So the ear dusters must go. I can tell you that this bow easily shoots arrows with a 28 " draw past 220 ft /sec.

Thanks for the comments !
Chadwk,
If you can pull a 45 lb bow  comfortably with a Korean style draw to 31 to 33 inches, it takes about a month of practice drawing the 70 pounder every day for 3 sets of 8-10 pulls before you can easily do the same with it. But it does work. Your release will be cleaner. Arrows fly much flatter and farther. And if you do progress to the longer pulls this bow will reward you with more smooth power up to the mid 80's around 32 inches.

Warbow,
Launching a long heavy hunting arrow from a mid 80-90lb draw should certainly do the trick on a wild boar. I've never hunted one but I have heard the shield is a very real problem for bowhunters.

I'm putting up my 70lb Hwarang for sale. This was a relatively new acquisition from YMG through Bluelake. It has been used sparingly because I haven't re-served the double serving on the string yet. It comes with the usual silk bowsock. It is like new and is a very fast and powerful bow. It is overkill for nearly everything unless you want to hunt grizzly bears or shoot for flight distance. It IS fun though watching lit nocked arrows disappear into a bale of straw and reappear on the other side as if they hadn't noticed it was there. According to forum member Ginni's graphs , http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=232 , the comparable SMG 70lb standard draws to over 95 lb of useful force at 33 inches. The price is $495 firm. Shipping will be extra via UPS. It would be shipped from the York, PA area in the US.

21

(13 replies, posted in Technique)

storm wrote:

What do you mean by "very high speed stop action photos". How fast can they do that?

A Canon 580 flash can have a flash duration of 1/40,000 of a second when set to 1/128th power. It is useful up to a few inches with a macro lens. It would probably work for this. To go faster you'd need an air-gap flash.

22

(13 replies, posted in Technique)

Hmm..I haven't really wondered why it happens, but this makes perfect sense. The only way to find out is to make a dry shot and check cool . of course, that is not an option, but heavy and light arrows could be used....wait...this might explain the oscillations mentioned above. The bow I was mentioning is a 75# or so Hwarang shooting about 45g arrows, in winter. Maybe the inertia is really playing an important role.

Yes, during the period of time the string takes to clear the thumb and thumbring (probably a millisecond or less) that long arrow would have the Inertia of a telephone pole. That's why it bends first before actually moving forward. And the string below the nock would suddenly be released more quickly sideways than forward. that would certainly set up oscillations before it became taut.

23

(14 replies, posted in Bows)

From "Bluelake", AKA Prof. Thomas Duvarney, he started this forum, wrote the book and is the person most responsible for bringing Korean Traditional Archery to the rest of the world particularly the US. You can order the Hwarang from him through http://www.koreanarchery.org/classic/hwarangbow.html

24

(13 replies, posted in Technique)

storm wrote:

tilting the handle forward could lift the back of the arrow off the thumb of the grip hand minimizing friction there by the fletching.

That is true...however I have an additional theory: when you remove the thumb from the string (realease), the low side of the string (below the arrow) starts to straighten being pulled by the the bottom bow limb. The top limb starts to move only after the string is straight. Therefore, there is a slight delay (1 ms or so) between the times when the top and bottom limbs start to move. Rotating the bow forward puts more pressure on the top limb, equalizing the limbs speed.

Are you saying that the inertia of arrow alone  is keeping the top limb from moving until the bottom part of the string becomes taut?If you are right that's a keen insight. Unfortunately the only way to prove these hypotheses is to record these interactions with very high speed video. I see you are already doing that but you may need something close to a 1/50,000 of a sec frame rate to show it clearly. Being a scientist I am very interested in these kinds of investigations. I have some colleagues who do very high speed stop action photos. Maybe through a series of those shots the interaction could be reconstructed. Let me know if you are interested, who knows, perhaps this would be publishable work.

25

(13 replies, posted in Technique)

IrishArcher wrote:

I have a funny feeling the rotation or tilting (in both cases) comes from the archer's grip on the bow. 

Since the grip is set before the draw with the focus being that the point of pressure is from the heel of the palm (just below the thumb muscle, where the bone to the wrist can be felt).

When drawing the bow the grip is pulled arrow-side a little... when the arrow is released the wrist/grip is released to correct and rotates/tilts back again (mostly with a little over compensation due to the pressure release!).

I've been told by different archers at my Jung to either rotate or tilt (depending on their own personal style).  Personally I find that I rotate my bow as I concentrate the power towards the aforementioned heel of my hand.

I think you're absolutely right. I think most people even some who give the advice don't realize the dynamics of this twisting,  tilting thing. See the end of chapter 14 in this treatise, www.pgmagirlscouts.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/saracen_archery.pdf , where the tilting is treated only as a "follow through".
In their defense it does happen too fast to see. The arrow is only affected by what forces act on it as it is leaving the bow not by what dance steps the archer performs when it is gone. Twisting the grip  could very well move the nock and string slightly to the right as it is being driven forward. This would align the front and back of the arrow to its true direction of flight. Forcibly tilting the handle forward could lift the back of the arrow off the thumb of the grip hand minimizing friction there by the fletching. It is interesting that both these effects are attempted by the off center tillering of korean bows by the bowyer and the high nock placement by the archer in Korean Archery.